Yep.

 

Sync?

MrTrogg;

there is 1 throttle shaft...... how would they get out of sync?

it was the remap!!

:drummer:


opcorn:

 

The magic "throttle sync" on these bikes is actually pilot air screw adjustment across the throttle bodies.

 

????



they are bypass air screws.........did they move??????

they have nothing to do with "pilot air screws" a mixture screw on carburetors

try syncing 6, 2 barrel Webers on a Ferrari........

1st you do the linkage witha feeler guage.......then the bypasses, then you play with

the mixture screws to see if you can raise the idle

twiddling on carbs since '59


:drummer:

 

Noel, I've always referred to them as throttle body airbleed screws. But who cares what term we use?

Bottom line is that my Rivale consistently stalled when rolling off (closing) the throttle with the clutch pulled in. Didn't matter what speed or what gear. Lots of threads in this section about this same issue.

Took it to the MV dealer who put on the (at the time) latest map, and it still stalled afterwards.

Then took the bike to my local independent Ducati/Aprilia/Moto Guzzi/MV Agusta technician who sync'd the throttle bodies via adjusting the airbleed screws. He said the screw on the #1 cylinder was completely closed, which he had never seen in all his years.

Once his sync'd it via the airbleed screws, it has never stalled since. Never.

I have since read that the #1 cylinder is the one that is "read" by the ECU, and further read that other manufacturers (Kawasaki, etc.) have been known to close that screw to pass emissions testing / certification. Don't really know if either of these things are true or not.

And I don't really care why my bike was delivered new with that airbleed screw closed, but my guess is that some bikes just won't function well with one throttle body airbleed screw closed and the other two open to different levels. As you know I'm not a technician, but just applying some lay logic here.

Anyway, there are several owners of three cylinder MV's on this forum with stalling issues who found the exact same thing - #1 cylinder airbleed screw completely closed, and the sync eliminated their stalling problems as well.

 

Yep again. If you have the stalling this is the magic cure. Despite the dealer telling me that no 1 screw completely closed 'wasn't necessarily wrong'.

Me - Why hasn't it stalled once since I adjusted it then?

Dealer - errrrr.....

 

?



simple you leaned out a cylinder.......that was too rich

so if opening all 3 bypass screws fixes the problem......

you think maybe its the MAP????

if you correctly SYNC a TB 1 screw will always be closed.....the leakiest one

you are correcting manufacturing differences so they all flow the same amount of air

at the same throttle position

what controls idle speed on the triples?

is the crank 120* or 180*

Kevin for emissions they can't read 1 cylinder.......the pipe is a 3 into 1

Greg don't get your panties in a wad ......its just a motor, an air pump car or bike

doesn't matter......it's the Otto cycle


opcorn:

 

My panties are just fine, thankyou Noel.

I simply tried to clear up for you what people were talking about when saying they had the throttle sync on the F3/B3.

If you can't accept what my (corroborated) answer was, I don't know what else to tell you...........

It seems that there's just no room in your head for any new information.

:naughty::naughty::naughty:

:smoking::smoking:

:wtf::wtf::wtf:

:drummer::jerkoff:opcorn:

????????????







:drummer:

 

?

We have a 3 cylinder motor.......

2 of the bypass screws are closed and it dies........

you open the other bypass screw and it doesn't die......

you add air and it doesn't die.....

hmmmm you think maybe the MAP IS FUCKED???????....like too rich????

what number joke map are you folks on now?????

you think MV should have spent the money to hire a FI engineer to map the POS

BEFORE they released it?????

Neel from Pectel is $1,000 a day ........he does F-1 cars

again what kind of crank is in the triple?????



any of you know?


opcorn:

 

We have a 3 cylinder motor.......

2 of the bypass screws are closed and it dies........

you open the other bypass screw and it doesn't die......

you add air and it doesn't die.....

hmmmm you think maybe the MAP IS FUCKED???????....like too rich????

what number joke map are you folks on now?????

you think MV should have spent the money to hire a FI engineer to map the POS

BEFORE they released it?????

Neel from Pectel is $1,000 a day ........he does F-1 cars

again what kind of crank is in the triple?????



any of you know?


opcorn:

I had a problem with my bike where it stalled on stops pulling clutch lever in. I went for applying latest map again which fixed my problem. Dealer coked up when applying the map first time. Applying it again CORRECTLY was the fix.

 

I think you need to halve the dosage mate.

 

Or double it.

 

A new map may provide a proper a/f ratio to each cylinder to compensate for a different amount of air to each, but it won't provide for an even amount of power developed from each cyclinder. That can only come with an equal amount of air being delivered to each along with the proper fuel ratio.

This will help smooth out the engine, and prevent a host of other undesirable effects.

 

A new map may provide a proper a/f ratio to each cylinder to compensate for a different amount of air to each, but it won't provide for an even amount of power developed from each cyclinder. That can only come with an equal amount of air being delivered to each along with the proper fuel ratio.

This will help smooth out the engine, and prevent a host of other undesirable effects.

That would only be possible if:
1/ The ECU had 3 separate channels, one for each injector/throttle body.
2/ Each injector/throttle body had a sensor to communicate back and forth with the ECU
And,
3/ Each injector/throttle body worked independently from the other two.

 

I recall talking to a credible source (now works for MV) that out of sync ride by wire TBs should be replaced rather than adjusted (also warranty good to 10 years since an emissions part).

 

I know you guys are talking F3 here but my 05' F4 1000 calls for a TB Synch every oil change as per the manual! And I do it too. And you know what? It needs adjustment EVERY SINGLE TIME. Those airbleed screws have zero tension on them and I'm convinced that vibrations slowly move them. This time I set everything up perfectly and put a dab of silicone gasket maker on each one so it can't move! Will report back in 5000km.

 

True - it requires virtually no pressure to turn them. It would help them not to move if there was a spring or something in there.

The map can say what it wants but if the physical set up of the TBs is wrong the map can't fix it however many times you update it. They're related but unconnected systems. It's like changing an indicator bulb because you have a flat tyre.

It would also be nice if it were easier to get to the darned things to set them. But hey.....

 

Even built my own manometer for $22. Here's a vid I made of when it was complete.

 

Originally Posted by bbrally View Post
A new map may provide a proper a/f ratio to each cylinder to compensate for a different amount of air to each, but it won't provide for an even amount of power developed from each cyclinder. That can only come with an equal amount of air being delivered to each along with the proper fuel ratio.

This will help smooth out the engine, and prevent a host of other undesirable effects.

That would only be possible if:
1/ The ECU had 3 separate channels, one for each injector/throttle body.
2/ Each injector/throttle body had a sensor to communicate back and forth with the ECU
And,
3/ Each injector/throttle body worked independently from the other two.

Agreed, I doubt each cylinder is managed individualy, as you pointed out that would require feedback from each cyclinder in the form of sensors tied to each cyclinder, or at the minimum, the map author to know which cylinder flowed differently from the others and by how much.

 

?

Kevin, Stephen ......

I've been playing with fueling for 50 years

the manufacturers are assholes.....

the 1.6M ECU on the 1st gen bikes is capable of running 16 injectors and 2 Lambda

(02) sensors and a bunch of other stuff.......MV chose to do the basic BS

those that have looked at the chips say that to make it difficult they wrote on the chip

backwards starting at line 8,000

the Siemans ECU on my '03 built Aprilia RSVR has everything to make a perfect

running bike;

02 sensor, MAP sensor, IAC motor, fuel pressure referenced to manifold pressure and

very well made throttle bodies unlike our POS

the setting called Map 1 is the stock smog setting....... Map 2 is for open pipes

but in Map 2 they delete 02 sensing??????

to do anything with the ECU you need the $2,400 Axone tuning device and the secret

password got both:naughty::naughty:

why did they delete 02 sensing? because they don't know how to use it and won't

spend the fucking money to hire some one that knows how to do it

so a friend in Switzerland hacked the Siemans........totally encrypted what assholes

you'd think the factories would want input from riders of their products.....like having

50,000 test riders for free.......no, they don't give a fuck.......and they know everything,

that's why your bikes die.......I asked before what number map you're on and what type

crankshaft you have?......NO ANSWER

Stephen;
the only thing you need to control the individual injectors in real time is an 02 sensor

per port.......the MicroTec ECU allows individual cylinder mapping not real time,

although it may be capable of it, I don't know, never asked

the ECUs are capable, the manufacturers went cheap PERIOD

look at all the fucking around with idle speed.......what, the ECU can't use an IAC motor

to control it?.....oh, that's right you have to use one:stickpoke

when my F4 is on the road it will work.......haven't decided what ECU and TBs I'll use

should put a pair of 48 IDAs on it just for giggles......just ran the formula past the

calculator......44-45mm venturiis would be the ticket

:drummer:


opcorn:

 

Kevin, Stephen ......

I asked before what number map you're on and what type

crankshaft you have?......NO ANSWER

Noel, I have no idea on either of these two questions.

And, although it's not in your realm of thinking, we owners really don't care as long as the bike runs well. As end users of a product, we don't worry about why a problem is there, or what the manufacturer could do to resolve it or should have done in the first place to prevent it, IF we can find a work around that gets our product operating well.

I realize THAT mentality goes against the grain for you, but most bike owners are not technicians, nor really care about WHY things don't work right, as long as they can get a satisfactory resolution or work around.

Be well.

 

I'll ask my dealer to put some locktite on there on the next service. That would do the trick.

 

Good point Joe. I think there are people at all levels of interest in wanting to know the technical details. Just as Noel is interested in the technical minutia of this, I work with a software support technical rep on a complex enterprise application who likes to share with me the smallest of technical details about everything. I just don't have the heart to tell him I really don't care - I just want it to work.

 

I have a friend who is an electrical engineer Kevin. When we go for a beer I am very careful not to bring up the subject of alternators lol

:jsm::ahhh::bawling:

 

Wow, this thread exploded.....

Regardless of the technical terminology the tech at my dealership adjusted some screws which I referred to as getting the "throttle bodies sync'd". I could be wrong, I really don't have the knowledge to argue otherwise however I feel that it was just as important as getting a new map in solving the bikes "issues".

I'm happy, I'd love to know more but at the end of the day.........:f4:


and then a little bit of this.....:brutale:

 

I've seen most here got their problem solve after snyc of airscrew. I've tried snyc and problem unsolve. Advise to turn up a quarter turns up but problems still unsolve. Than got a BS advise to wait for the new mapping and bear with the current situation.
My idling drops a few seconds after i close my throttle. (posted a link to show my dash on the idiling dropping) My technician told me it my TPS faulty. I doesn't has good technical knowledge and would like any advise on what might be the cause of this. This stalling is really getting me fustrating

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwD-Pol70_0

 

I've seen most here got their problem solve after snyc of airscrew. I've tried snyc and problem unsolve. Advise to turn up a quarter turns up but problems still unsolve. Than got a BS advise to wait for the new mapping and bear with the current situation.
My idling drops a few seconds after i close my throttle. (posted a link to show my dash on the idiling dropping) My technician told me it my TPS faulty. I doesn't has good technical knowledge and would like any advise on what might be the cause of this. This stalling is really getting me fustrating

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwD-Pol70_0

If the stalling can't be solved by syncing you almost certainly have an inlet air leak. I was told at the dealer that when they've done sprag clutches they've found an o ring in the inlet that wasn't sealed properly so now they put some extra sealant in there on reassembly. They've seen this more than once. If that's the case on your bike you'll never get the throttles in sync because however much air you let in with the air bleeds it's also pulling some in through the leak.

I posted this earlier but I was testing this using the method of spraying WD40 or similar around the manifold. At one point I managed to stall the engine completely just by spraying at one spot. I did this several times just to prove to myself that I wasn't imagining it. Then suddenly it wouldn't stall. I have no explanantion for this as I didn't dissassemble anything. My only guess is that I sprayed so much lube in there that something that wasn't in it's proper place slipped into place and sealed. I know that sounds daft but I can't think of another explanation. All I know is it has never stalled again and it it runs <almost> perfectly. Tiny glitch just as you open the throttle but you can easily ride round it. If you want to try it remember that spray lube is flammable so don't come moaning to me if you burn your garage down.....

The place I sprayed is on the pic below just below the messy red triangle

 

syncing......

for syncing 1st you need to understand what you're trying to do....

you want the same amount of air going into each cylinder so you need an air flow guage

carb sticks ( 4 manometers) you can't go wrong just slow and can be messy

the electronic manometers $$$

TwinMax analog electrical differential pressure gauge ( will only do 2 cylinders at a time so you do 1&2 then 1&3) very accurate

and the old standby Uni-Syn (~$25 on Ebay) nothing faster (can't have holes in the air horns ?????) been using the same 1 since '59

I eliminated the vacuum lines on my 910R .....12 places that can't leak now, so I use the Uni-Syn (the early air horns have holes :wtf I epoxied them up

what controls Idle speed on a triple?

the ECU with an IAC motor or a throttle stop screw?

when I find out, I'll continue

anybody have an A/F reading at idle on the individual cylinders? or even just 1 cylinder?

opcorn:

 

Haven't taken mine apart enough to know if it has an IAC or not.

Hope it's just a throttle stop screw- even with a slipper clutch and programmable engine compression braking, it would be nice to be able to fine-tune engine compression braking by adjusting the idle speed.

 

The crank is a 120° , the sync is made when the engine is running (hot of course), helped by the phase sensor who is connected the N°1 air duct (that why the screw is closed). The sync is made via the dealer mode at the end of a service, it tunes all pulses living thru the valves plays , the leakages at the ducts and reacts on every cylinder by measuring efficiency in crank acceleration at explosion phase while ilding; It also revs a litle to compensate the amount of fuel, to improve the transient moment when butterflies openning occurs. This all tuning takes more than 5minutes. The last map is N°51 here in Europe (the fuels are not the same on the planet...)
Cheers

 

any updates? Thinking of doing the airscrew adjustment also just looking for a Manometer

 

just did mine to my F4 2013 today, throttle body 1 was half turn, number 2 was 1/4, number 3 was closed, and number four was 1/4 turn. I have the workshop manual and it says min is 1/2 and max is 3 1/2 turns. I left everything how it was but opened up number three min half turn. turned on the bike and idle was smooth and rev response was quick no lag like before. Im going to cool the bike down and see how it does cold start.

 

@alagichdamon - Please be cognizant of the age of a thread when posting.