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A talented friend is thinking about fabricating aluminum frames for trellis-based performance motorcycles and has approached me about using my Brutale to 'clone' the frame. The objective would be to render a frame with improvements both in torsional rigidity, weight, and adjustment options (such as an Aprilia SV4).
Is there a market for improved frames?
 

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Wow

I would like to see that, I have yet to see a Ally Trellis frame on a modern road bike, I have no idea how he would get the same strenght out of it.
Ti I could like, which often that I could afford one of those.:popcorn:
 

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whoa!

OK, the MV has a chromoly trellis frame, don't know what its heat treated to but, you could take 4130 to 150k or more but i wouldn't ......keep the steel frame :drummer:

yes, aluminum weighs 1/3rd of what steel does, but the modulus is 1/3 of steel.....so for equal strength it need to be 3 times as thick or increase the diameter

and aluminum work hardens too, thats why the radiators crack

Donsy forget Ti:popcorn:
 

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I agree with Noel on this one,chrome moly is good stuff,it is strong,flexiable and can be made 1/3rd the size of alluminium to achieve the strengh.You only have to look at the Jap bikes with that ugly twin spar alloy frame,give me chrome moly any day,Mitch.:yo:
 

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A talented friend is thinking about fabricating aluminum frames for trellis-based performance motorcycles and has approached me about using my Brutale to 'clone' the frame. The objective would be to render a frame with improvements both in torsional rigidity, weight, and adjustment options (such as an Aprilia SV4).
Is there a market for improved frames?
I think if he's that ambitious he should make titanium sub-frames.
Better chance of selling those to F4 y10+ guys who don't want passenger peg mount holes, and are looking everywhere to cut weight.
 

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A talented friend is thinking about fabricating aluminum frames for trellis-based performance motorcycles and has approached me about using my Brutale to 'clone' the frame. The objective would be to render a frame with improvements both in torsional rigidity, weight, and adjustment options (such as an Aprilia SV4).
Is there a market for improved frames?
Reading the responses so far, people have assumed that your friend is attempting to fabricate an aluminium trellis type frame, where reading your post, it seems maybe this is not the case? Could you clarify if in fact he is looking at fabricating a aluminium cradle type frame as per the RSV4 or if in fact he is looking at creating a trellis frame out of Aluminium?

I think clarifying this will help, as I agree with the consensus here that it is a no go on an aluminium trellis frame, but would be an option on a cradle style frame and would open up those options you propose.

I don't think this would do anything for the looks of the bike (IMHO), but it would nevertheless be an interesting concept to see developed. If Alex (Alka) reads this, maybe he could photoshop this concept to see what it would look like!

I'm with Donsy though and would love to see a Ti frame, or should I say, I would love to be able to afford a Ti frame!
 

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why?

Why Noel why ? :bawling:
steel is hard to beat its 3 times as stiff as aluminum and twice as stiff as titanium
http://www.engineersedge.com/manufacturing_spec/average_properties_structural_materials.htm

the trellis frame is real stiff, but its still relatively open to let air through and to allow you to work on the motor without removing it

lets say the trellis in steel weighs 10 kg, to be the same strength in aluminum say (with a lot of design work) 9.5 kg and the Ti one about the same or a little less

the steel frame is made from well known and tested material for frames

aluminum work hardens and cracks

Ti doesn't corrode, its easy to weld, but its expensive and you don't gain much

how much weight can you save on the wheels alone? or brake discs? or by tossing the heat exchanger:naughty:
 

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Aluminum is for babies. Is you're worried about weight and want a high specific stiffness, use a beryllium / magnesium alloy frame. :stickpoke

The grade of Al you'd need would cost close to Ti and you'd need to anneal the whole thing to retain the properties in material near the welds... otherwise it'll crack. It would look kinda cool and if you use it for a show bike or a race bike that doesn't get many miles, it'll be fine. I doubt there'll be a big market for them.
 

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wow
It sounds like a bunch of (fill in explicit condeming ruler slur here) here shooting down any free-thinker wanting to do something different.

Carbon Fiber.

(HAHAHHAHAHHAHA!! you know i was going to say it :))
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Reading the responses so far, people have assumed that your friend is attempting to fabricate an aluminium trellis type frame, where reading your post, it seems maybe this is not the case? Could you clarify if in fact he is looking at fabricating a aluminium cradle type frame as per the RSV4 or if in fact he is looking at creating a trellis frame out of Aluminium?

I think clarifying this will help, as I agree with the consensus here that it is a no go on an aluminium trellis frame, but would be an option on a cradle style frame and would open up those options you propose.

I don't think this would do anything for the looks of the bike (IMHO), but it would nevertheless be an interesting concept to see developed. If Alex (Alka) reads this, maybe he could photoshop this concept to see what it would look like!

I'm with Donsy though and would love to see a Ti frame, or should I say, I would love to be able to afford a Ti frame!
You are correct. He's talking way over my head but I understand twin-spar is his objective. A good deal of work by Phil (AfterShocks), who was working under the same roof at the time, helped "tame" the suspension (which had a tendency to try and buck me off on less than glass-smooth roads.) Although it's a great improvement, Danny seems to feel that a frame with the correct amount of flex would allow the M.V. to corner better on less than perfect street roads. And, of course, there would be all these adjustments available, not just steering head angles but even engine mount points...etc.

I'm skeptical about the commercial success of such a venture: Is this a solution looking for a problem? Not only is the target audience very small, many worship the trellis as a signature piece in a work of art and the "improved" frame may turn out to be expensive, (4-5K ?) And, if an MV is not a candidate by the numbers, what would be?
 

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you don't design flex into frames, you design it out!

flex in a frame causes steering inputs, not exactly what you want:stickpoke

you can use carbon, but it doesn't deal with crashes well and you can't see internal damage

look at carbon bicycles they are huge around the steering head and bottom bracket

you want Ti? for bling? its only a tiny bit lighter than aluminum

ever design and build a frame?
 

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you don't design flex into frames, you design it out!
Yes you do. You design it in as a intermediate suspension component and a flex to dial out frequencies transmitting through the chassis.
..................

Or are you just messing with us Knurl??:naughty:
Did I miss the sarcasm:wtf: (my bad):)

..... (Carbon Fiber, Had to say it :) )

Tree
 
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