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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all, looking into possibility of developing a Unique Race bike for the Superbike or Formula One class and presenting Chassis/Engine package to Race Sanctioning Board. I am Extremely confident the Main stream race fan will love to see a big bore Harley Air Cooled V-Twin powered competitive Superbike package running against the usual Japanese in line 4 cylinder Superbike such as the Suzuki GSXR1000rr, Honda CBR1000RR,Yamaha R1 and Kawasaki ZX10R.

The.. BTR MOTO GP .. A 404lb Trellis Chassis Superbike powered by a Harley Davidson Air Cooled,Twin Cam,V-Twin Engine and 6 speed transmission.
As we all Know the Harley Davidson engine is a very Heavy, low RPM power plant that is about a high tech as your Great Grandfathers 1956 Ford Edsel .
So to Make a Harley twin Cam V-twin engine produce competitive Horsepower the Displacement would have to be roughly 127ci-2100cc and install a Small Turbocharger such as a Variable vain Aerocharger, Garrett GT-15,or a small C-15 Rotrex Supercharger. Even with such Large Displacement and Turbo/Supercharging
a 127ci/2100cc Harley Twin will produce roughly 200HP at the rear wheel VS The Race prepped Japanese Inline 4 cylinder Superbikes which produce roughly 220 HP at the rear wheel.
The BTR Moto would still be at a 20 HP deficit but have a roughly 50 lbs torque advantage.
IMHO a fair trade off. Can a Harley Air Cooled V-Twin with 200 RWHP stay together without exploding for a full race distance ? That's the Engine Builders Job LOL.
IMHO IF LETTING A BIG BORE HARLEY ENGINED SUPERBIKE CAN BRING IN THE MAIN STREAM RACE FAN IT HELPS EVERYONE IN RACING,BOTH RACER AND RACE ENTHUSIAST.Also, the more manufacturers, engine types,chassis types that you have the better and Race engineers CAN
balance different configurations to make a level playing field for all. Look at MV AGUSTA, TRIUMPH & DUCATI in WSS and AMA Supersport racing. 600cc inline 4 cylinder VS 675cc inline 3 Cylinder VS 848cc V-Twin. (high tech/high RPM V-twin) all very different engine configurations yet level performance.
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THANK YOU FOR YOUR OPINION/INPUT JAKE 318


PICTURE OF BTR MOTO SUPERBIKE made in California
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Moderator ... I Didnt Know Where To Post ? Wanted To Ask Racer & Race Enthusiast
I Know Its Not A Mv Agusta , But Mv Agusta Riders Love Racing .

Btw. Mv Agusta F4 1000rr Racing In Wsbk In 2014 ....phenominal .... !!!
Just Like The F3 675r Did In Wss The Mvf4rr Is Going To Surpise Everyone In Wsbk.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi Quad ,Ptsalas.... The biggest hurdle is the MISCONSEPTION that for the last decade or so WSBK sanctioning bodies gave DUCATI an unfair displacement advantage that allowed the V-Twin DUCATI to make more Horsepower than the inline 4 Japanese Superbikes. When in reality Ducati was at a DISADVANTAGE .The Ducati 999/1098/1198 had to be 8 kilos heavier (roughly 16 lbs ) restricted to 50 mm throttle bodies . ( THE STOCK 1199 Panegale has 65mm throttle bodies to give measure to severity of restriction)Fact Is , when it comes to making Horsepower The 150cc-200cc of displacement given to V-twins is no way near the inherent advantage of having TWICE the power pulses and the ability to run roughly 4000 -5000 higher RPM . THE JAPANESE INLINE 4 CYLINDER SUPERBIKES ALWAYS ATTAIN HIGHER TOP SPEED/TRAP SPEEDS THAN THE DUCATI SUERBIKES. DUCATI just outworked and out smarted the Japanese manufactures developing a high tech V-twin that had more torque/bottom end power for drive off the corners. By the time the peaky high RPM Japanese inline 4s could make there Superior horse power , the high torque V-Twin Ducati Superbikes had too much of a lead to catch before entering next corner . The V-twin Ducatis did make Good HP,just not as much as the inline 4s.( torque without sufficient HP makes a bike jump off corners then just flatten out )
Ducati realized there are more corners and short/midsize straits that utilized torque than long straits that utilized maximum top end Horse power . So for having an intelligent racing plan they where penalized .
 

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my god some one who fully understands what duke and any non jap bike has to go through
who remembers spray and nation on the 500cc ish wankle norton F1's first outings the creamed the field
but as soon as the japs could not compete nortons had restrictions put on reduce cc size to 350 ccish drop the bhp to 3/4 of the jap stuff with the mouth sheene helping the jap jugernaught

Jake the bike looks great sounds like you could be on to a winner but if it wins to many times be prepaired to put square wheels on it
 

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I don't agree with you at all Paul.
In the late 80' and 90's, the Jap bikes where not allowed to run their 1000's or their 1100's against the 888/916/996 bikes, yet it's called Superbikes ? What wins on Sundays sell's on Mondays.
I thought it was Ducati's choice to build V-twins, and if their top model could not keep up with the other brands top models, it's their own choice.
Do you remember when the Ducati's became 1098 and 1198, how the 1000's had to use restrictors?
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Buell tried to compete in AMA Superbike with the BUELL XBRR FIREBOLT . THE XBRR power plant was a 1320cc Air cooled 45 degree Sportster engine with Duel 65mm throttle bodies that made ... 135 RWHP at 8500 RPM. USING THE SPORTSTER ENGINE WHICH WAS DESIGNED IN THE 1950s THE XBRR HAD NO WAY NEAR ENOUGH DISPLACEMENT TO COMPETE AGAINST THE THEN MODERN JAPANESE INLINE 4CYLINDER SUPERBIKES.
To make matters worse the Buell XBRR 1320 was a time bomb on 2 wheels. Being a 45 degree V-twin
BOTH pistons RISE &FALL together (off by roughly 5 degrees=worse ) Creating MASSIVE internal centrifical forces from attempting to attain an 8500 rpm redline in a desperate attempt to make even semi competitive horsepower. Buell Could not buy/make rods strong enough , and holes in engine blocks the size of baseballs where a common occurrence.

THIS IS WHY 2100cc AND THE ADDITION OF A SMALL GARRETT GT-15 TURBOCHARGER IS NEEDED ON THE BTR MOTO. NOT LOOKING FOR ADVANTAGE , JUST ASKING TO BE COMPETITIVE AGAINST THE MODERN EURO/JAPANESE INLINE/V-4 SUPERBIKE.

EVEN WITH 2100cc and TUBOCHARGING THE BTR MOTO WILL BE DOWN ON HORSEPOWER.

BUT.... THE BTR MOTO 2100 TURBO WILL COME OFF CORNERS & ACCELERATE LIKE NOTHING YOU HAVE EVER SEEN !!!
Hopefully using a set up of a 5000-6000 RPM redline , the large forged pistons/rods/stroker crank will stay inside the cases for the full race distance .LOL All kidding aside , running a 5000-6000 RPM redline
should keep internal forces within design perameters. Using a Very small turbo it will spool (not just spin) at idle. Therefore the engine is ALWAYS on boost. never creating ...Lag.. ( like F1 car.) Also, using a very small turbo that spools at idle in combination with under square stroker V-Twin e makes HP at low rpm.
CAN YOU IMAGINE A AIR COOLED HARLEY v-TWIN RUNNING NOSE TO NOSE WITH TOM SYKES KAWASAKI ZX10RR DOWN A STRAIT?
 

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It would be nice to see something else compete with the Jap bikes, or inline 4's, oh wait, there is always the V-fours too.
At the end of the day, to me it's Superbikes, so street bike based. In other words, if you sell a 2100 or 1000 to the public, you should be able to race it in that same configuration, or near close enough at least.
Now MV needs to bring out a 1100 F4.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Donsey when Ducati first went Superbike racing they approached the AMA in 1986.Ducati was laughed at, the thought of a V-Twin being competitive against an Inline or V-4 was preposterous. No one gave them a fiddlers chance in hell of even getting on a podium , not to mention actually winning a race. Japanese Superbikes where the Kawasaki KZ750,The Suzuki GS750 both air cooled/ inline 4 configurations and the Honda Interceptor, a 750cc liquid cooled V-4 . then thought of as the pinnacle of engine/chassis technology , never to be surpassed. So the Ducati 851 Liquid cooled V-twin Superbike had a displacement advantage of only 100cc. They where ALLOWED to be 20lbs lighter but ended up being only 6 lb lighter as the Ducati steel trellis machine couldn't get down to weight.
This was the case For many years and Ducati didn't win the AMA superbike championship until Doug Polen won the title in 1993 on the Ducati 888. I am not a Ducati enthusiast although I do own a Ducati 1198 and admire Ducati for there underdog spirit in MotoGP and WSBK. Hell HONDA has more employees making handlebars than DUCATI has TOTAL employees.

Donsey if you look back at WSBK trap speeds Ducati was slowest factory bike on the Grid but winning races . 200cc doesnt compare to the inherent advantages of inline 4/V-4 HALF the power pulses , 4000 less RPM .

Yes Ducati makes more torque , but they are down in HP...Its a trade off . Its not Ducatis fault that the WSBK tracks favor torque. As it is the new WSBK tracks have incorporated longer straits .
 

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Come on Jake Harley had a Superbike with the VR1000 and it was not that much off the pace.
Competitors of that time as Honda and Ducati were impressed at the initial outing of the VR1000.
Alone it was a butt ugly machine, like made so that it will be never copied.
Now rules are rules and rules have to be applied for a competition.
Unless You create a series were everything is open, for an example displacement, blown or not, sort of fuel,....
But once You have such a formula the japanese will outperform Your 2100cc turbo charged HD elephant on any given day.
More problematic to me would be how many would be willing to ride such ballistic missiles.
Until the seventies was it open for every manufacturer to field machines in certain displacement classes.
500, 350, 250, 125, 50 cc.
We saw singles, twins, triples, fours, sixes and eight cylinder bikes in two and four stroke applications.
Where would be motorsport today if there wouldn't be any limitations and rules ?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Haupie Your missing the point. changing rules tI am not asking to throw away rule book? Just asking to allow old tech Harley engines competitive .. Harley Davidson air cooled, 45 degree V-Twins with 2 valves per cylinder is such a inefficient design it NEEDS 2100cc and Small Garrett GT-15 turbocharger JUST to be on Par with the Modern European/Japanese 1000cc Superbikes . The BTR MOTO Harley Superbike would STILL be down by 20hp. BTR MOTO=200 RWHP Japanese/European superbikes 220HP. The 2100cc Harley twin cam V-Twin ( The engine Harley uses In there TOURING Models)is a stroker motor and would have a 40LB torque advantage. like I said before its a trade off. Not looking for advantage , just equal playing field.
PS ... HAUPIE THE BTR MOTO SUPERBIKE WEIGHT IS ONLY 404LBS DRY.
I AM NOT A HARLEY GUY/FAN JUST LIKE TAKING OLD TECH ENGINES/BIKES AND MAKING IT EQUAL IN PERFORMANCE TO HIGH TECH ENGINES/BIKES..
HAUPIE WE ARE DEVELOPING A BUELL XB12R FIREBOLT WITH 1420CC AND UNDERSLUNG SMALL GARRETT GT15 TURBO. CHASSIS/BIKE HAS BEEN UPGRADED TO WSBK SPEC AND NOW WILL HAVE 160-170 RWHP 10LBS TORQUE . CAN YOU IMAGINE A BUELL FIREBOLT OUT POWERING YOU ON A RACE TRACK LOL.. HOLDING THE RPM DOWN TO 6000-6500 ON THE BUELL FIREBOLT ALSO FOR RELIABILITY.
45 DEGREE V-TWINS DO NOT LIKE RPM ( BIG PISTONS GOING UP & DOWN TOGETHER CREATES VERY HIGH INTERAL RECIPRICATING FORCES IN ENGINE CASES.)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Red no National /world classes have forced induction . We are talking about east coast USA area.
the race fans will love seeing a Harley Touring bike engined Superbike. BUT you NEED 2100cc/turbo
Harley touring bike engine to equal Japanese/European 1000cc hp outputs.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
HAUPIE The Rule would read: Only air cooled OHV, pushrod,45 degree v-twins with 2 valves per cylinder would be allowed to use 2100cc & Turbocharging. ONLY Harley produces such a low tech engine . Even Briggs & Stratton Vanguard V-Twins have a newer 90 degree V design than a Harley V-Twin.lol

HAUPIE... My AVATAR pic is a 1000cc Briggs & Stratton Liquid cooled 90 degree v-twin Turbocharging and installing in a Harley Electra glide.
With forged pistons and rods and a Very small IHI RHB32 turbo, the Briggs liquid cooled V-Twin makes 100hp at the crank.
The Briggs & Stratton V-twin will produce 100hp(up from 35) and being its a 90 degree v-Twin. There will be no /very little vibration.

The Briggs Harley bagger will end up being a smoother/faster motorcycle than a Harley engined touring bike.

BTW Harley riders HATE being beaten by a Briggs & Stratton Motorcycle.
 

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Well, there is the Harley XR class, which has had some really good racing on spec bikes.....the Harley crowd still don't come to the races. They are not about racing, they are about life style.

The problem you have is the basic engine architecture. Even Erik Buell recognized this and lobbied to get a real engine for his Buell bikes, only to be summarily dismissed by Harley who had the gall to retain the rights to his name with regards a motorcycle brand.

Erik is back now with the EBR and capitalization from Hero in India....and his bikes are finally competitive.

Been to an AMA race this year? EBR and KTM making glorious sounds and staying in sight of the Yamaha jaugernaut and the aged Suzukis.....

I fear you are tilting at windmills trying to force an antique slice off a radial aircraft engine to perform at current technological levels. Time marches on.

Buy an EBR (they are available) and you will have some money left for the tires and entry fees.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Donsey that must have been a Austrialian national Superbike series . Also 4Cylinder engines have a lot of inherent advantages over v-twins /twins . So a restricted 750cc 4 cyl. vs 1000cc twin seems like a good balance. I DO AGREE being the class is SUPERBIKE the restricted 1000cc 4cyl. VS 1200cc twin is a better package as a whole.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
EQEZME.... So you think I should shop around for a EBR 1190RS? I remember seeing one of those around here but cant remember whos bike it was...oh yea, NOW I remember ,,, Its ME !

EQEZME ..My race team went to Daytona bike week CCS in October.My EBR 1190RS won the 10 lap feature
race and set the record for the Fastest motorcycle to ever ride the high b at 204.6 MPH.
I also Own a 127ci/2100cc Harley Road glide that makes 215 hp 185lbs torque. Even though it weighs 800 lbs the 2100cc Supercharged Road Glide walks away from Suzuki GSXR 1000RR, Kawasaki zx10R,and
Yamaha R1 in a 20-80 mph roll on contest or 1/8th mile drag race . Same situation with the BTR MOTO Superbike VS Japanese/Euro 1000cc. The BTR MOTO Superbike have 200 rwhp VS the 220 rwhp of the Japanese/Euro Superbikes but even with the 20hp deficit, the BTR MOTO will walk away from jap/euro superbikes because of the 40lb torque advantage. BUT... the 20 hp advantage that the Jap/Euro superbikes have will allow the Jap/Euro 1000cc superbikes to pass the BTR MOTO SUPERBIKE on long straits.
its a trade off.

EQEZME I think the point you where trying to make was you think a 2100cc Harley
engine cannot produce 200 RWHP. Look up Procharger site , http://www.procharger.com
You will see many Harley 120ci 127ci supercharged engines making OVER 200hp
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Supercharged/Procharged Harley Davidson Road Glide 215hp 185lbs torque.
Changed wheels to 19 inch front 18 inch rear. Bitubo racing rear shocks designed for Harley.
Changed triple tree to modern/normal type.Harley touring triple trees are from 1950 and don't go through top of triple tree.
JRI tech installed JRI custom race fork cartridges.
Changed over belt drive to chain drive.
Installed Hyper pro Steering damper.
Changed tires to Hardest compound Metzler track day tires.
 

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