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Discussion Starter #1
When I bought my 1090RR I had the Arrow Thunder system fitted by the dealer. It was supposed to be supplied with the upgraded ECU. This was April, I'm still waiting for the ECU. Apparently, it is not suited to the altitude I live at, only some 5500 ft AMSL. High, I know, but still. Anyone ever heard of this?
 

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Uhmmm...the air pressure sensor tells the ECM your altitude (lower pressures at higher altitudes) and it compensates accordingly. The beauty of electronic fuel injection over carburetor jets when climbing mountain passes (or Pikes Peak).

So that ain't it.
 

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Thanks esq'z me. I suppose the only potential problem would be if the fuel maps or dosing system (injectors) could not compensate but that seems highly unlikely. I'm awaiting response from the dealer and factory, will let you all know what they said.
 

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Thanks esq'z me. I suppose the only potential problem would be if the fuel maps or dosing system (injectors) could not compensate but that seems highly unlikely. I'm awaiting response from the dealer and factory, will let you all know what they said.
Shouldn't be a problem with the injectors because they'd be delivering less fuel at altitude. Curious to see what you find out.
 

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The only way a base map cold be unsuited to high altitude is if it was written with no compensation or offset tables which in this day and age is extremely unlikely.

In the base mapping there will be a number of offsets for stuff such as temp, altitude, pressure etc and they will manipulate the base fuel tables accordingly to stop the engine from running rich or lean due to atmospherics.

In essence I'm not sure what you've been told is entirely true or correct.
 

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At the moment I'm riding in the Alps. Been up to nearly that altitude and could not feel any problem on my engine. 13 RR with MV Corse race kit (decatted Headers and ECU).
Jochen
 

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Discussion Starter #9
:confused:
The only way a base map cold be unsuited to high altitude is if it was written with no compensation or offset tables which in this day and age is extremely unlikely.

In the base mapping there will be a number of offsets for stuff such as temp, altitude, pressure etc and they will manipulate the base fuel tables accordingly to stop the engine from running rich or lean due to atmospherics.

In essence I'm not sure what you've been told is entirely true or correct.
It didn't quite make sense to me either. Anyway, they said it would be resolved by the end of next week, so we'll see. Thanks for the information.
 

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Damn, they forgot to tell me!

I wish I had known that when I purchased the same exhaust system for my 1090RR, MY2010. I'd have not screamed up to Big Bear lake on Sr-38 over Onyx Summit elevation 8,334 ft passing a bunch of cars with ease, or eclipsed Emory Pass at well over the ton on HY-152 in southern New Mexico, elevation 8,210 ft. I'd have been more docile. Who'd a known my bike was not supposed to do that?

This bike has been up and down every high road in the mountains in SoCal, and has shown no signs of altitude sickness. With these bikes being born in Verese, IT, about three hours south of Stelvio Pass, elevation, 9,010 ft, I'm hard pressed to believe the information you have received is valid.

Best wishes on getting the race ECU fitted and getting out enjoying that new exhaust system. It is a hoot!

Ciao,
Dick
 

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When I bought my 1090RR I had the Arrow Thunder system fitted by the dealer. It was supposed to be supplied with the upgraded ECU. This was April, I'm still waiting for the ECU. Apparently, it is not suited to the altitude I live at, only some 5500 ft AMSL. High, I know, but still. Anyone ever heard of this?
Not sure, but would this have something to do with resetting the tps?
Does the dealer have the software to reset the tps?
Have they installed thunder exhaust and ecu on a 2010 or later/newer Brutale before?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Not sure, but would this have something to do with resetting the tps?
Does the dealer have the software to reset the tps?
Have they installed thunder exhaust and ecu on a 2010 or later/newer Brutale before?
This may be the first Brutale they have done, I can't really comment on whether they have the kit to reset tps.
 

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Putting the "upgraded" ECU in usually involves disconnecting the Secondary Air Circuit and the O2 sensor in the exhaust. It will not be able to auto-adjust for changes in mixture based on altitude. I wouldn't see it as a show stopper, though.

FWIW, this bike has the shorty exhaust and Race ECU. (2010 1090RR)

010s.jpg

011s.jpg

012s.jpg

Oh, yeah...it's titanium...:smoking:
 

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Putting the "upgraded" ECU in usually involves disconnecting the Secondary Air Circuit and the O2 sensor in the exhaust. It will not be able to auto-adjust for changes in mixture based on altitude. wrong!
Installing the "kit" ECU allows you to eliminate the 02 sensor and second air system, as it doesn't use them, but you can also leave it all there. It just won't be doing anything.

The dealer MUST use the VDST software to reset the TPS and will also need to adjust the idle trim CO% (something that can't be done with the standard ECU as that is what the 02 sensor is for).

The ECU will STILL use the air pressure sensor to monitor barometric pressure and thereby adjust fueling for altitude. You need not worry about altitude with a modern fuel injection system.

If the dealer has changed ECUs on F4s he will have no problem with a Brutale, as the systems work the same way. He had BETTER have the software. You can't work on modern bikes without the computer diagnostic software and cables.....true for Jap bikes, Triumphs, Ducatis...etc.
 

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Whoops...thanks for the correction, Ed! So, just what does the O2 sensor do...?:ahhh:
 

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The only way a base map cold be unsuited to high altitude is if it was written with no compensation or offset tables which in this day and age is extremely unlikely.

In the base mapping there will be a number of offsets for stuff such as temp, altitude, pressure etc and they will manipulate the base fuel tables accordingly to stop the engine from running rich or lean due to atmospherics.

In essence I'm not sure what you've been told is entirely true or correct.

The ECU will STILL use the air pressure sensor to monitor barometric pressure and thereby adjust fueling for altitude. You need not worry about altitude with a modern fuel injection system.

Whoops...thanks for the correction, Ed! So, just what does the O2 sensor do...?:ahhh:

*tap* *tap* *tap* *click* does this work now, hello? HELLO? HELLO? Hmmmm i wonder if i switch it off and then on again if that'll work?

*click* Hello? ah well :(
 

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No one else is listening Chris....but I am.

Chuck, the o2 sensor is only active at low throttle openings and rpms. It sends a lambda signal that the ECM uses to adjust fuel mixture in that range...to meet emissions specs which are based on a driving cycle that seldom goes much above low throttle.

Most bikes today have pretty rich mixtures at full throttle/rpms, but run lean down low, since this is where most street use occurs and hence the emissions test cycle.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks to all for the information

*tap* *tap* *tap* *click* does this work now, hello? HELLO? HELLO? Hmmmm i wonder if i switch it off and then on again if that'll work?

*click* Hello? ah well :(
I think we've determined that the "altitude" version of the problem is most likely not true, or correct. Jochen is riding the Alps (lucky man) and Dick's been tearing up the mountains sin SoCal, so that theory is soundly bust, as Chris indicated early on. I'm surprised to hear that the lambda probe is disconnected with the upgraded ECU (or not used, thanx for the photos!) That would imply that the fuel is dosed based purely on preset maps and data from the air flow meter and other sensors(?) Having tuned a number of cars I have yet to come across a system that could not correct for altitude or temperature variations. It is beginning to sound as though the dealer may not know quite how to do the installation. Resetting of TPS was never mentioned by the dealer, and I can't comment on his ability or access to software/hardware to do this. As expected, this forum has proven to be a goldmine of information. Photo of my mistress attached, exhaust is there, but the upgraded brain not. Still nice to look at, what? I'll let you know what the outcome is. In the meantime I've added a PC5 and autotune module to my "Dear Santa" list.
 

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Nice looking bike !!! You will need the kit ECU with that power commander/auto tune, as the o2 sensor will keep correcting for any changes made in the lower rpm/throttle openings. (this is true for the 5SM ECUs, maybe not on yours? I don't know)

The kit ECU is for "Off Road Use" only....the CO% is adjusted manually via the software, just as the pre-Euro3 bikes with 16M ECUs were (with those it is done manually by adjusting a potentiometer on the circuit board).

The primary inputs the 5SM ECU looks at to control fueling are the TPS (which must be set at installation), the Crank Position Sensor (rpms). pretty crude system actually. The newer bikes (yours) may also use the Manifold Air Pressure Sensor....which most modern systems use. I don't know.

Other sensors: Engine Coolant, Atmosphere Pressure are minor inputs to the fuel maps.
 

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Chris, I'm listening and trying to understand.

What, if anything, triggers the mapping changes for altitude? There is no altimeter on the bike, so how does it know it's higher? Seriously.

The air pressure sensor, I assume, compensates for the ram air effect of speed. Temperature sensor, well, does ambient temperature compensation (both for intake air density, right?)

I didn't know (and there is a lot here I don't know) the O2 sensor only was in use at low RPM...what's the cutoff?

Believe me, I don't want to be a tuner...but I do like to understand. (and I hate it when I think I give good advice and I'm wrong because I am a ninny.:smoking:)
 
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