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^ Very good quotes by some exceptional people.

Winston Churchill, “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

Interesting reading the above quotes, the US is far larger and therefore represents a far broader range of cultures and interests. Perhaps a democracy ceases to function when you are dealing with multiple states. In the EU, it’s like being a wolf outnumbered by well armed sheep ;)

In reality, I've outlined above why the EU isn’t even a true democracy, becoming more of an authoritarian regime as time goes by. With 13% of the vote (Uk), it cannot function effectively as a democracy not for the UK or any country in the EU, not all the time we have different cultures and interests. So to pool all power into a central unelected all powerful ruling elite rarely ends well either.

People are corruptible when power is offered to them on a plate, more so if they can not be held to account. Being half Venezuelan and seeing what has happened there in a mere 20 years is unimaginable and the country unrecognisable as a place I love.

For years there was corruption, every few years the opposition would get in and the corruption would swing the other way, the government would appoint their friends to power who would benefit and line their pockets generally, they would get 5 years of this before being thrown out by a disillusioned electorate for the next lot to have their turn at the table. However the country always remained a beautiful place to live and visit, of course with an underlying crime problem (that came from poverty and not enough being done about it) which meant you always needed to be wary. What they have now however is something far worse, if proof were ever needed about the effects of socialism, how Venezuela has been trashed in so few years since Maduro came to power. It was bad enough with Chavez, but he kept the wheels turning just enough at least, however they made themselves unselectable, it operates as a faux democracy, it is in reality a dictatorship although the brave opposition limp alongside it as best they can, meanwhile the country is backed by Russia and China, both of whom own most of her assets and keep Maduro well furnished with weapons and advice. They are the power behind the throne and a convenient base right on the US doorstep. You only need to look at the emigration figures to see how bad things are. They are a wonderful people who did not deserve that. Now the country is being taken over by an influx of unsavoury militant characters, as the regime cosies up to it’s friends, all the worst regimes left in the world, representing terrorists and oppressors over the world.

Some may consider me paranoid, by if you let your guard down for a moment look at what can and has happened. As Edmund Burke said “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” So yes, looking to the future, one has to imagine what could happen, a system like the EU where decision makers are not accountable to the electorate is not something I relish. As Edmund Burke also wrote;

“They must be worse than blind who cannot see with what undeviating regularity of system, in this case and in all cases, they pursue their scheme for the destruction of every independent power,”

This was quoted by Dan Hannan in the EU parliament when they decided to sweep aside the rule of law when it suited them to quieten the voices within the EU parliament that brought about awareness, such as the ‘troublemaker UK MEP’s’. Hannan compared it to the enabling act in Germany, all traces of that video have since disappeared on the internet. Here is a part transcript of the video titled ‘despotism in the eu’ or ‘as we stand to transfer even more of our powers to the EU, the slow death of democracy in Europe’. taken from Hannan’s one minute slot;

“I thought that, after eight years in the European Parliament, nothing could shock me any more. I was wrong.

Yesterday, the President of the Parliament, Hans-Gert Pöttering, asked for, and was granted, arbitrary powers to suspend the rules of the institution in order to disadvantage the tiny number of MEPs who want a referendum on the European Constitution Lisbon Treaty.

I have come to expect hypersensitivity to criticism, flouting of rules, intolerance of dissent, authoritarianism. But nothing had prepared me for such blatancy.

Hans-Gert openly admitted that the behaviour of his Euro-sceptic opponents was within the rules. And he wasn’t asking to change those rules – a procedure that would take time. No, he simply wanted permission to disregard them. Permission was duly granted, by 20 committee votes to 3.....

Let me instead quote the grand-daddy of British resistance against Euro-totalitarianism, Edmund Burke. What most bothered him about the French Revolution, more than its republicanism, its atheism, its threat to the peace of Europe, was that it owned itself bound by no law.

“They must be worse than blind who cannot see with what undeviating regularity of system, in this case and in all cases, they pursue their scheme for the destruction of every independent power,” he wrote in his Letters on a Regicide Peace. “Their will is the law, not only at home, but as to the concerns of every nation. They have swept aside the very constitutions under which Legislatures acted and the Laws were made.”.....

It is only my regard for you Mr chairman and my personal affection for you that prevents me from likening it to the Emachtigungsgesetz of 1933 which was also voted through by a parliamentary majority.”

The Emachtigungsgesetz was the Enabling Act with which Hitler won unlimited power.

More info on that here as EU governments reversed putting Lisbon treaty containing big reforms to a referendum;
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/feb/01/conservatives.uk

Another good article here I just happened to find...that was back in 2011...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8857533/This-was-the-week-that-European-democracy-died.html
 

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@theknurl


"Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of democracy" ---Alexander Hamilton

This goes very deep. And it is not understood at all by most of the people screaming for liberty.


And since we are quoting, the ever relevant, especially in our current western times:



 

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^ Very good quotes by some exceptional people.

Winston Churchill, “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

Interesting reading the above quotes, the US is far larger and therefore represents a far broader range of cultures and interests.

................................................................................................................................................................................................................

On a friendly tone, that is utter nonsense. You have no real understanding of neither European cultures(including the UK's) nor those of the USA.

Throughout your posts you do raise some points but there seems to be no understanding between the dots.

I was wondering about your need to believe you belong in a different tribe/culture, that is completely separate and detached from continental Europe. As I told you before democratic concerns are not your main driver. Nor raw nationalism in your case.
And then you dropped the hint. You are half Venezuelan. Your environmental variables can explain a lot about your psychological need to adopt a distinct English/British, whatever local identity. Being part of the pure core. I'll leave it to that.


Be careful what you wish and vote for though. You might not like what you find on the other end. Especially if you are a bit Venezuelan brown:wink2:
 

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On a friendly tone, that is utter nonsense. You have no real understanding of neither European cultures(including the UK's) nor those of the USA.

Throughout your posts you do raise some points but there seems to be no understanding between the dots.

I was wondering about your need to believe you belong in a different tribe/culture, that is completely separate and detached from continental Europe. As I told you before democratic concerns are not your main driver. Nor raw nationalism in your case.
And then you dropped the hint. You are half Venezuelan. Your environmental variables can explain a lot about your psychological need to adopt a distinct English/British, whatever local identity. Being part of the pure core. I'll leave it to that.


Be careful what you wish and vote for though. You might not like what you find on the other end. Especially if you are a bit Venezuelan brown:wink2:
That’s a strong statement with a lot of assumption, I’m not quite sure how you come to that conclusion, I didn’t realise I was being psycho analysed ;) , maybe those aren’t gaps, maybe what you feel is missing is just not relevant to the discussion. My posts are lengthy enough without getting into any further details ;) ?

Not that its entirely relevant to this discussion but I am born and bred in the UK for 4 generations, my bloodline is Italian and Venezuelan with that side derived mostly from Spain! So I have a good understanding of all those cultures and speak Spanish and Italian fluently, while having lived, studied and worked in the UK since birth as did my Father, Grandfather and Great Grandfather before me, since before both World Wars in fact!

Regardless of country or culture, democracy is a universal concept, you believe in it or you don’t. Some would choose convenience over having a real say. I feel proud to be British and I’m also proud and aware of my bloodline. Venezuela might be a shithole now, but go back to the 80’s and 90’s and it was an amazing place with fabulous architecture, engineers, beaches, natural beauty and resources not to mention Miss World’s! I don’t pretend to understand the US system but I have family and friends who live there in different states and right now they are just as politically polarised.

I don’t feel I need to belong to any tribe, I’m a child of the world but that doesn’t necessarily translate politically. Political culture can be very different to people culture, and that is the problem with the EU as a political entity. It isn’t really anyones culture is it? Democratic concerns/Sovereignty are absolutely my main driver in this discussion and have been throughout the brexit debate.

I have concluded in my own thoughts that whatever side you sit on, boils down to a very primeval instinctive reaction as to where you perceive the gravest danger to lie. I’ve stated my case!

Ps, for clarity, my comment on the US was comparing to the UK following the Churchill quote, not the EU.
 

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That’s a strong statement with a lot of assumption, I’m not quite sure how you come to that conclusion, I didn’t realise I was being psycho analysed ;) , maybe those aren’t gaps, maybe what you feel is missing is just not relevant to the discussion. My posts are lengthy enough without getting into any further details ;) ?

Not that its entirely relevant to this discussion but I am born and bred in the UK for 4 generations, my bloodline is Italian and Venezuelan with that side derived mostly from Spain! So I have a good understanding of all those cultures and speak Spanish and Italian fluently, while having lived, studied and worked in the UK since birth as did my Father, Grandfather and Great Grandfather before me, since before both World Wars in fact!

Regardless of country or culture, democracy is a universal concept, you believe in it or you don’t. Some would choose convenience over having a real say. I feel proud to be British and I’m also proud and aware of my bloodline. Venezuela might be a shithole now, but go back to the 80’s and 90’s and it was an amazing place with fabulous architecture, engineers, beaches, natural beauty and resources not to mention Miss World’s! I don’t pretend to understand the US system but I have family and friends who live there in different states and right now they are just as politically polarised.

I don’t feel I need to belong to any tribe, I’m a child of the world but that doesn’t necessarily translate politically. Political culture can be very different to people culture, and that is the problem with the EU as a political entity. It isn’t really anyones culture is it? Democratic concerns/Sovereignty are absolutely my main driver in this discussion and have been throughout the brexit debate.

I have concluded in my own thoughts that whatever side you sit on, boils down to a very primeval instinctive reaction as to where you perceive the gravest danger to lie. I’ve stated my case!

Ps, for clarity, my comment on the US was comparing to the UK following the Churchill quote, not the EU.

Bloodlines and knowledge of languages does not automatically grant someone understanding of cultures.
Education(not just training!) and experience, the never ending process of being shaped up through mental and physical struggle, the constant chiselling in order to be morphed into something is what leads to understanding. On top of raw intelligence to begin with(nature is a bitch!).


A hollow idiot born and bread in the UK has striking similarities with an idiot born and bread in France, Italy, Spain, the USA, Venezuela, Madagascar e.t.c. Not surprisingly their needs are very similar also.


To be clear I do not call you an idiot. Neither I have a problem with your rejection of the EU and as I said you do raise many points.

I doubt (the level of) your understanding of the matters at hand and of the driving forces within you. And that is just my interpretation.


P.S.: Just remembered, somewhere you wrote that the nations inside the EU, we became soulless e.t.c. How can I take you seriously?
 

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I agree with your first and second paragraphs, although I maintain my cultural understanding as far as Italy and Vz goes, it goes far deeper than language and bloodline but I won’t expand further because it’s too off topic and irrelevant to my argument re the EU.

Your third paragraph, I’m curious what matters at hand I’m missing in relation to the EU. I don’t profess to be an expert at anything, I have an opinion and I’ve gone to greater lengths than most to support why I feel like I do.

You seem to be concerned with the driving force within me but it’s really very simple, I want my vote to have some worth. I want to be able to influence what happens in the country where I live, at a level that can effect change.

I also have an issue with this nation and the history that it has in the last 100 years which is engrained in our culture, education and history, submitting and subordinating itself to a higher power, largely outside of our control taking us down a course from which it will be increasingly difficult to reverse from, and importantly for me, this creeping power that continues to consume sovereignty and taxes one treaty at a time and one I don’t fully trust to be in the best interests of our country and to my civil liberties.

It’s easy to snipe and scoff from the sidelines calling people idiots and ignorant while ironically offering nothing intelligent to counter, I’m not referring to you here either.

I didn’t say the countries had become souless, I believe I said losing national identity and becoming a hollow version of themselves. I stand by that. When elections become largely meaningless and people become unhappy with daily life we’ll see, it’s already the case in much of Italy.

How can you take me seriously? I think I’ve been consistent throughout, I don’t profess to be an authority on anything, I am what I am, I have diligently gone to the source for the facts where I can, the Lisbon treaty in this instance, which I have read, and the remainder wider reading that I’ve done, perhaps more than is healthy on the topic having closely followed for the last decade mainly, on top of regularly following our Parliament live. I am just one person and I have a strong opinion on leaving the EU, but I don’t berate others whose choices differ to my own, I respect them and empathise with their fears, thus far, it hasn’t changed my thinking on the matter.
 

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The USA is a republic not a democracy.......
Papua New Guinea.......Are you out of your mind???? My best friend on this Forum spent almost 40 years in Papua New Guinea He described it as 10,000 years ago......outside of the large city everything runs on bribes...... And you carry an assault rifle and pistol all the time......for good reason :wink2:
Perhaps I was not clear enough with what I wrote. I do apologise. Am I out of my mind? Thank you for asking, I try.


My comments on PNG were about local PNG communities, and Indigenous commuities generally, not the chaotic PNG Govt. That chaos is in part Australia's fault. It was an example of decision making that is not democratic in the 'western' parliament sense, but is very inclusive & aims for consensus, although it is a much longer process.


It seems you do not like, or perhaps it is that you do not understand what democracy is, and is not, or how a democratic government works. The USA is a democracy, and the form it takes is a republic. By comparison, GB is also a democracy, but not a republic, it is a constitutional monarchy. Queen instead of President. If the USA is not a democracy, how do you elect representatives? Does your republic just appoint them? That would be totalitarianism?


All the quotes in the memes you posted are from old, rich, white men, & more than two hundred years ago. What passed for democracy, and justice then, and now, are very different. How many of those elder statesmen had slaves, or shares in companies that profited from slavery, for example.


Do you not advocate the carrying of weapons in your republic? Or is it only an indication of a collapsing social order if those carrying don't own big American cars.
 

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So now its going to get even more interesting. Boris Johnson's party group posted a flagrantly fraudulent video portraying the labor leader as unable to answer a question through editing after he already answered teh question and now there is a Russian investigation that "supposedly" supports the fact that Russia didn't meddle in the vote or the election but, for some reason, Boris doesn't want to release it until after the election. That seems fishy as hell.

Is boris another useful idiot like trump?
 

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Is boris another useful idiot like trump?

In truth yes, we are reaping the whirlwind of our own arrogance a bit when it comes to Boris i think. See, when he went for London Mayor he was seen as the underdog, floppy haired chortling bafoon and if there is one thing we do very well in the UK it's back the underdog. Whilst we acknowledge talent and success you'll get just as much if not more applause for 'having a damn good go at it' etc etc. Trump would never succeed over here simply down to his arrogance and ungentlmanly conduct in the face of success or more importantly others lack of success. Even those who claim to not be in a 'class' will still to a degree deem someone like Trump just not sportsmanlike and deep down that sort of stuff is the back bone of being British i feel.



Boris presented as this clueless and mostly harmless upper class twit, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time, making an arse of himself and forever stumbling over his words. Yet this appears to have not all been an act, it appears there has been some calculated moves occuring. He is now the leader of this country yet still appears to act as though conducting an after dinner drunken speech at his local gentlemans club.


I fell for it hook, line and sinker. Wrote him off in to the 'surely we'll not actually let the fool take office' catergory yet clearly got proven wrong. Mind you i did also say 'They'll never fucking vote Trump in, just look at him'.............................got that quite monumentally wrong as well which proves only one thing.........................do not get political advice from me as my opinion means shit!!
 

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My question is, how the Lib Dems and remainers in general believe they can reverse Brexit now?

After all that happened, considering all the qualitative characteristics and particularities surrounding Brexit?How can one ignore such strong feelings of a large portion of UK population about such an important subject?
How is it viable for the UK to immediately return and function within the EU framework after all that happened?


No matter how much one dislikes Brexit, reversal would be catastrophic for both the UK and the EU.
From what I understand most EU politicians in position and power realize now that it is too late. That it would be a big mistake to accept the UK back (immediately). But there are still individuals(forces?) that think along the lines of "any small win is still a win for the EU project".


In my opinion in order for Brexit to be given any chance of making any sense, UK needs to get out completely! Otherwise it will be farcical!

At this point, I find the role played by political opposition in the UK obnoxious. Disgusting!
 

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So now its going to get even more interesting. Boris Johnson's party group posted a flagrantly fraudulent video portraying the labor leader as unable to answer a question through editing after he already answered teh question and now there is a Russian investigation that "supposedly" supports the fact that Russia didn't meddle in the vote or the election but, for some reason, Boris doesn't want to release it until after the election. That seems fishy as hell.

Is boris another useful idiot like trump?
That video was a disgrace, if Tories are going down this route, to fight the election with the focus on negatively portraying opposition parties rather that positively portraying their own, I hate to say they will doom their election campaign. It’ll be the same as thr one that failed so dismally in ‘97.

Keir Starmer (Shadow Brexit Secretary not Labour leader btw) is a fine politician imho, he should be running the Labour party, how he can sit next to the socialist prick leader Jeremy Corbyn is beyond me and it’s a travesty that they can even be uttered in the same sentence. He actually did extremely well in that interview and is as honest a politician as you could hope to find. I like him and he carries well the diplomatic statesmanlike mantel of a politician that one could be proud of.

Tories would do better getting their own house in order and focussing on what positives they would bring rather than trying to cheaply trash the opposition. They best learn fast if they want to be successful.
 

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That video was a disgrace, if Tories are going down this route, to fight the election with the focus on negatively portraying opposition parties rather that positively portraying their own, I hate to say they will doom their election campaign. It’ll be the same as thr one that failed so dismally in ‘97.

Keir Starmer (Shadow Brexit Secretary not Labour leader btw) is a fine politician imho, he should be running the Labour party, how he can sit next to the socialist prick leader Jeremy Corbyn is beyond me and it’s a travesty that they can even be uttered in the same sentence. He actually did extremely well in that interview and is as honest a politician as you could hope to find. I like him and he carries well the diplomatic statesmanlike mantel of a politician that one could be proud of.

Tories would do better getting their own house in order and focussing on what positives they would bring rather than trying to cheaply trash the opposition. They best learn fast if they want to be successful.

Corbyn i'm 50/50 on, however he appears to be attached to that utter fucking lunatic Diane Abbot and whilst she still somehow clings on to a position that could do any real damage to the country he's severly damaging his card.


She is a 24carat gold, four funnel ocean going nut job. My dogs tail has more understanding of the world at large than she does, christ on a bike she's mental.
 

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Brilliant - spat my coffee out reading that

Alas i can't take full credit for that phrase, i've stolen the back bone of it from a friend who says it with much a more stylish and far posher accent with just that tiniest of elements of being not only very dsimisive but slightly sinister with it.


It normally starts with 'You sir can only be described as........' before insults are delivered. It's a thing of beauty to watch.
 

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And again we have the minority of community who won't accept the result of the 2014 Scottish independence referendum.:grin2::wink2:
Not really Nigel, things change.

The main reason many Scots chose to remain part of the UK in 2014 was so that they could remain "part of the EU"
Westminster parliament plastered all over the media that if Scotland became Independent they would be forced out of the EU and so had to vote to remain.

and now; the UK is forcing Scotland against the will of the Scottish people out of the EU

So it is fairly obvious why many in Scotland is shouting for another Independence referendum, perhaps this time they will get it right.
 

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That video was a disgrace, if Tories are going down this route, to fight the election with the focus on negatively portraying opposition parties rather that positively portraying their own, I hate to say they will doom their election campaign. It’ll be the same as thr one that failed so dismally in ‘97.
Keir Starmer (Shadow Brexit Secretary not Labour leader btw) is a fine politician imho, he should be running the Labour party, how he can sit next to the socialist prick leader Jeremy Corbyn is beyond me and it’s a travesty that they can even be uttered in the same sentence. He actually did extremely well in that interview and is as honest a politician as you could hope to find. I like him and he carries well the diplomatic statesmanlike mantel of a politician that one could be proud of.
Tories would do better getting their own house in order and focussing on what positives they would bring rather than trying to cheaply trash the opposition. They best learn fast if they want to be successful.
The story in the link below may have something to do with the attitude you refer to. It seems that politics in Australia is slowly going the way of the US, cults of personality, hatefulness and no policy as policy.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-08/topham-guerins-boomer-meme-industrial-complex/11682116
 

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Corbyn i'm 50/50 on, however he appears to be attached to that utter fucking lunatic Diane Abbot and whilst she still somehow clings on to a position that could do any real damage to the country he's severly damaging his card. She is a 24carat gold, four funnel ocean going nut job. My dogs tail has more understanding of the world at large than she does, christ on a bike she's mental.
While this was funny, you may need to explain for your non Brit readers. From what I just read about this woman she seems fairly sensible?
 

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The story in the link below may have something to do with the attitude you refer to. It seems that politics in Australia is slowly going the way of the US, cults of personality, hatefulness and no policy as policy.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-08/topham-guerins-boomer-meme-industrial-complex/11682116
Its pretty much where everywhere is going now that the populations of developed nations is aging. Old people dont like change, certainly dont like being told they are wrong by the "millennials" and a lot of the semi/unskilled laborers who had a stable lifestyle in the false post-war economies of the nations that were not destroyed during the war are now unable to keep up in a competitive global economy. Really not since the late 80s.

They are lashing out, but since they dont know what they are fighting against they are ripe for exploitation. And the right has found that its really easy, just keep it simple and choose a target. As long as someone has a target they dont have to think. Scientists, intelligent people, etc say "its complicated" and have a long, detailed answer when people ask whats wrong. People dont like complicated so they flock to the simple. So the people who are actually screwing you over are free to continue to screw you over because its easy for them to say, "I'm your friend its THOSE people who are responsible for your situation!"

I'm seeing it happen to people I know, including my father. He used to be an intelligent man but now he is only capable of absorbing sound bytes and parroting them. If you sit with him and outline the details he can admit that maybe he has the wrong idea, but he certainly is no longer intellectually mature enough to do it on his own. Its just easier to watch fox and friends.
 
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