MV Agusta Forum banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This is most likely old news but i just read the swing arm spoiler? that Ducati developed is now illegal . Why am I poed over something so small you may ask? Its the point that Honda and Yamaha can install there own swing arm spoiler in an afternoon why bust Ducatis chops over this ? BTW The Spoiler also keeps some debris and water off the rear tires contact patch so its also an improvement in safety . BUT the real issue in my not so humble opinion is that Hondas influence at DORNA has become BLATANT. Honda is having problems with MotoGP handling/developement , Dorna holds up other factories developement. WSBK.. Honda down on power, cut Kawasakis RPMs mid season then plan cut Ducatis new V4 RPMs before the bike has even STARTED the racing season stating if the new V4 is strong a penalty will be assessed.


NOW THE SHOE IS ON THE OTHER FOOT.... THE NEW HONDA CBR 1000RR-R Looks to be the odds on favorite as the strongest High tech bike in WSBK. WILL/IS DORNA planning to penalize Honda with an RPM cap?...I dont think so and no one else does either . Thats the problem everyone knows HONDA has DORNA in there pocket and its blatant. This is a contributing factor of other factories leaving racing AND a big factor why companies like BMW do not get into MotoGP. They feel like they are competing against other factories AND DORNA. Nothing is more frustrating than developing new,better technology only to have a burocrate disallow it with the stroke of a pen.

BTW I know BMW has publicly stated MotoGP racing is too expensive but in reality MotoGP racing is SO MUCH cheaper than Auto racing that a MotoGP team is within the budget. One of BMWs out goingCEOs said its not the expenditure in R&D/racing MotoGP its that you never know if all the time and money spent with end up in the trash bin the next day from a rule change.

Racing has changed from ...Win on Sunday , sell on Monday... to a Product Showcase. OUR PRODUCT IS SO GOOD IT CAN WITHSTAND THE STRESS OF RACING AND COME OUT ON TOP.

This is why the thought of Maquez /Rossi being the sole reason Honda won races was so critical to Honda and Honda stating it was the RCV213V winning the races not just Marquez.

OUR PRODUCT HANDLES LIKE A TRUCK BUT MARQUEZ IS SO GOOD WE WON ANYWAY didnt go over so well at the advertising Department at Honda LOLOL

ANYWAY I DIGRESS , DORNA... PLEASE DO NOT INTERFERE with factories technology improvements
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
18,832 Posts
Sounds like the old "Harley-Davidson owns the AMA" argument....remember when the Honda dirt track race bike was essentially banned after it decimated the Harleys all season???

Then there was the intake restrictors imposed on the Yamaha TZ750 so the other guys could keep up on the road race tracks .... and the ban of the TZ750 based dirt tracker Kenny famously said of "they don't pay me enough to ride that thing".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,907 Posts
While im not heavily focussed into the regulation of MotoGP and WSBK.

Same BS excuses happen to Ferrari and lately (year or 2-3) with Mercedes.
Its not so much on the regulations itself, but more of dodging penalties.

Heck I just misspoke myself.
Ferrari was illegally using more fuel than allowed for over 4 races and won 2 races during these events. They can pinpoint exactly when it started cause out of the blue Ferrari was hauling ass.

Instead of removing the points they gained, they give out a warning towards all teams.

Hamilton cutting behind pit entry pole back onto track during safety car... Gets a warning.

Obvious penalties are ignored and teams with that score highest eyes, always dodge the bullets.

My rant is now done xD
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
815 Posts
2020 World Superbike initial rev limit:

Aprilia: 14700
BMW: 14950
BMW 2019: 14900
Ducati V2: 12400
Ducati V4: 16100
Honda (SC77): 15050
Honda (SC82): 15600
Kawasaki: 14600
MV Agusta: 14950
Suzuki: 14900
Yamaha: 14950 (increased)

I'd love to see the actual algorithm used.

MV still homologated, now where are my leathers :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
ESQ i remember same situation and the AMA was wrong also.
BGS Not an excuse Dorna shouldnt penalize ANY manufacture for its ingenuity/technical prowess. But DORNA will penalize Ducati and give Honda a pass for the same issue. And look at kawasaki. Oldest engine on the WSBK grid and the LOWEST RPM allowance . NO ONE should have an RPM cap.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
DANSOARR, THANK YOU for the RPM limits in 2020 (initial) VERY informative . QUESTION? I assume the SC82 Is the Honda CBR1000R-R?
This time last year DORNA had surmised after the first winter tests the new Ducati V4R was TOO GOOD and if they finished on the podium in the first 6 races they would be penalised 250 or 500 RPM ?redline (roughly) so i dont see DORNA penalizing the new CBR1000RRR. BTW DoRNA talks about cutting costs but the penalties only INCREASE engineering costs as human nature is for manufacturers to try and get the same HP from less RPM.

Do away with RPM caps all together its SO hard to predict the outcome because of the plethora of variables. Use displacement help for LESSER/OLDER designs. MUCH easier to predict the outcome,MUCH cheaper for the manufacturer and it allows smaller manufacturers to be competitive. Everyones happy closer racing . Except for Honda as they can afford the higher engineering costs IF they are penalized at all (which they most likely wont be) Yes we all are tired of REA winning. BUT remember Kawasaki paid there dues... before REA kawasaki hadnt won a WSBK title in NINETEEN YEARS. The ZX10RR is now the oldest design on the grid DORNA LIFT THE PENALTIES
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
815 Posts
One correction, Kawasaki before JR they only had to wait 1 year. Don't forget Tom Sykes won in in 2013, and lost by 4 points in 2014, before Rea joined.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Dansoarr thats right i forgot Sykes WSBK title . I stand corrected, It was 19 years before Sykes gave Kawasaki a WSBK title.. Dansoarr who was before Sykes? I can see his face but cant remember his name ? Rob Muzzy was the crew chief.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Dansoarr speaking of Sykes remember in 2014 when ..EXPERTS/Announcers couldnt figure out the MYSTERY? of Sykes wearing out tires before anyone else? We all knew it was Sykes size/weight. Sykes weight was 180lbs most guys on the WSBK grid where 140lbs. Dansoarr you KNOW that extra 40lbs is like 400lbs when your trying to slow down at 180 mph. To this very day i wonder why no one would state the obvious and say it was Sykes size /weight wearing his tires out early .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
815 Posts
Your man was Scott Russell.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
173 Posts
DANSOARR, THANK YOU for the RPM limits in 2020 (initial) VERY informative . QUESTION? I assume the SC82 Is the Honda CBR1000R-R?
This time last year DORNA had surmised after the first winter tests the new Ducati V4R was TOO GOOD and if they finished on the podium in the first 6 races they would be penalised 250 or 500 RPM ?redline (roughly) so i dont see DORNA penalizing the new CBR1000RRR. BTW DoRNA talks about cutting costs but the penalties only INCREASE engineering costs as human nature is for manufacturers to try and get the same HP from less RPM.

Do away with RPM caps all together its SO hard to predict the outcome because of the plethora of variables. Use displacement help for LESSER/OLDER designs. MUCH easier to predict the outcome,MUCH cheaper for the manufacturer and it allows smaller manufacturers to be competitive. Everyones happy closer racing . Except for Honda as they can afford the higher engineering costs IF they are penalized at all (which they most likely wont be) Yes we all are tired of REA winning. BUT remember Kawasaki paid there dues... before REA kawasaki hadnt won a WSBK title in NINETEEN YEARS. The ZX10RR is now the oldest design on the grid DORNA LIFT THE PENALTIES
I disagree, they should just make RPM caps be what the stock bikes have, no adjustments.

I think WSS also suffers the same problems of appeasing Yamaha and Honda's. Did Dorna remove electronics as it when MV looked to becoming stronger?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
F3 Matt what you say sounds good in therory but a big manufacturer would just make a homologation special Like the CBR1000RR-R . This is a VERY expensive way to go racing . The LEAST expensive way to set up a racing series is to set a maximum displacement per cylinder set up (example 600cc 4 cylinder =675cc 3 cylinder =850cc 2 cylinder ect ect and lastly a minimum weight . . From there performence is like water ,,it finds its own level...Its SO much easier to calculate increase of HP in a lesser design adding displacement andits so much cheaper for the manufacturer AND it doesnt piss off the manufacturer that JUST SPENT a truck load of money in R&D only to have DORNA take away the fruits of there labor and the money spent in R&D . Drop the penalries/ No RPM caps and all 4 manufacturers will soon end up with the same HP (roughly ) as they are all 4 cylinder high tech racing engines . CLOSER RACING and less money spent by manufacturers.

Dorna pulled this Bullshit in the mid 1990s i recall. Pissed off the smaller manufacrurers they pulled out and Honda had no one to race against
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
If I am off on the particulars concerning racing in the mid 1990s its because I had a family to take care of and LITERALLY worked 18-20 hour DAYS lol (Starting new business AND had another FULL TIME job ) I worked so much at one point my heart was V-tacking and palpitating . Racing was on the back burner at that time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
173 Posts
I'm still not sure I agree with that in what should be a production based class. That is basically how Kawasaki came to dominate. They were/are spending more than anyone and it shows. Even in parity series the biggest teams always has an advantage because they have the money to develop and set up everything just that little bit better.

There is already a price cap on homologation specials (40k euro's). They could lower this to stop an arms race but ultimately if it gives the public better bikes it should that not be the goal of the rules?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Matt they would still start with a production Literbike the manufactures would just be allowed to work them to a higher state of tune . Make it simple.. Its WAY cheaper for manufactures to work 4-6 superbikes toa higher dtate of tune than Build 500 homologation specials . Even A Small manufacturer can afford to work 4-6 bikes to the max . But that same small manufacturer cannot build 500 homologation specials to get around restrictie rules .
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top