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Gary Kohs - What's this guy smokin'?

These are rare bikes, but a REAL Disco SS just sold on eBay for $17,001.00 a few months ago. The owner who sold it was located in Florida. He got the bike from a friend in Switzerland, who had the bike for 20 years before he sold it to him 10 years ago. It was REAL.

$50,000...? GOOD ONE!

An object is only worth what someone will pay for it.
 

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Gary Kohs - What's this guy smokin'?

These are rare bikes, but a REAL Disco SS just sold on eBay for $17,001.00 a few months ago. The owner who sold it was located in Florida. He got the bike from a friend in Switzerland, who had the bike for 20 years before he sold it to him 10 years ago. It was REAL.

$50,000...? GOOD ONE!

An object is only worth what someone will pay for it.
That bike in Florida was a CS made to look like an a CSS. It had the Earls Fork added and an extra S stamped on the engine case, but the engine number was a CS. And there were other obvious items that made it a CS to anyone who knows anything about these bikes. A very nice CS for 17K, but not a CSS worth 40k plus today if you can find one. I just love the experts on these forums!
 

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If you're such an expert, what were the obvious attributes that showed it to be a CS?

I bet you're basing your decision strictly on the engine number. Wrong!
 

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Gary Kohs - What's this guy smokin'?

An object is only worth what someone will pay for it.

Whatever he's smokin, I want some. Mr. Kohs comes across as a really nice guy, who's obviously very successful. I pretty sure Mr. Kohs is aware of your second point.........
 

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Ladies... Let's all calm down here. If someone will pay 20k in AU for a 350 ipotesi then anything is possible
 

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Ladies... Let's all calm down here. If someone will pay 20k in AU for a 350 ipotesi then anything is possible
I think thats a long way from money in the bank Alex :laughing: Anyhow, I am going to that auction on the weekend and will report back - I am betting it won't see a single (real) bid over $10k.

I must say this IS a very interesting thread :naughty:
 

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Rob. Definitely let me know how it goes. I MIGHT let her go for a F4 750 if it does sell for more than 15k
 

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I normaly keep way away from this type of slanging match. Other forums might think this is normal, but the great thing about this one, especialy the classic section, is that we all get on.

No one on here is an expert and we all learn from each other, i hope.

There is indeed a great deal of crap talked about MV's, more so than almost any other marque it seems. It is only by passing on what we do know that the right info can get out there.

If mistakes are made, we are all human after all, then lets help each other out....not slang each other off.

Funny, as soon as big money comes into the equation things go down hill.

Remember this is supposed to be fun guys!

Dorian.
 

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I totally concur with Dorian's comments; I gravitate to this forum mainly because it lacks the "drama" of so many online exchanges and informs rather than inflames. I also know that Gary Kohs has a collection of vintage MV's that anyone on this forum would envy. He has spent an incredible amount of time and money assembling it and certainly is as knowledgeable about the subtleties of the marquee as anyone in the world. The only other Disco Volante CSS I have ever seen resides in Guy Webster's collection in Ojai, CA. Guy has owned and sold well over 600 motorcycles thoughout his collecting life, mostly of Italian vintage, including some of the most collectible in the world. He has culled his collection to a group of the rarest 1950's MV's, Ducati's, Parilla's, Mondial's, Gilera's, etc. and I know that he would not part with his CSS for $40k.
 

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Michman I agree about Gary Kohs. He is in deed enthusiastic MV Agusta obsessed guy. He is in fact also a nice fellow and it is a pleasure to meet and speak with him. His Collection is breath taking and shows almost every production bike MV ever made in Verghera.
Now if a 175CSS is 50000 $ worth is his opinion and might even reflecting rich collectors views. For me, who has seen a few 175CSS in person is this price insane. Especially for such a barn found. Sure they are cool locking and are a great addition to a collection. But I would rather see them on the road or occasionally at vintage race events. If somebody would be impressed by single digit power output on any country road is another question. And here is my point again. What real value does a 175CSS has. Compared to a 125 Monoalbero, or even Bialbero ? Or a 750S ? Or any Corse model ?
Don't get me wrong but I work hard for my money. And I could get two F3 Oro for it. Or four F3 or a F4 + a Brutale + a F3. And thats why I think it is a insane amount of money for a 175CSS.
 

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Well said, Ralf!

And that other quote, also very true. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it.
Reminded me of an interview with one of the leading Belgian bankers during the crisis on the stock market. The man, sitting at his desk, said to the reporter: "do you see the painting behind me? I know what I paid for it, but it's really only worth what someone will give for it. Well, it works the same way with shares on the stock market, but the man in the street doesn't seem to understand that."
 

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I couldn't agree more with your observation Oepie, something is only worth what a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller at a specific point in time. The important thing to remember for "the man on the street" is that it only takes one willing buyer to establish a market value for any collectible. And Ralf, with 750 Sport's selling for $70k and up (see the MV BikeMuseum site for one for sale at $80k+), I would submit that given a Disco Volante 175CSS is much rarer, there is at least one (and probably several) of us who would, indeed, value one in the condition of Gary Kohs' in the $40k to $50k range. I for one would rather have a 750S or a 175CSS over any current MV. Having owned (and sold) a Tamburini in part to fund the purchase of my Magni 861, I think I've substantiated that conviction. And, I do ride the Magni and most of the other vintage bikes in my collection.
 

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It's funny I started a thread about 'motorcycle investments' a while ago particularily with this kind of thing in mind. I am also pleased that in that thread there was absolutley no flaming & an excellent exchange of views.

For mine the standout response/view came from Dave (The_castle) when said about his Tamburini inter alia, 'that when he is lying on his death bed 40 years from now, its not what x% percentage gain over the purcahse price that validates the 'investment' but rather the joy it has brought and the enrichment of his life'.

That my friends, is the real 'motorcycle investment' anyone that doesn't understand that should retrain as a forex trader beacuse its the $$$ that they obvioulsy like looking at, if so, why try and form $$$ as a motorcycle?

The reason why I love this forum?- the people :)
 

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I read forums to become more informed, but I also avoid them because unlike a face to face interchange of information, it is too easy to say anything you like and walk away even if you are wrong. This is the second time I have ever posted and I am doing so because my secretary suggests that what I have to offer will save others from buying a fake bike. So consider this a contribution to the community and not a response to another's post.

The 175 Sport monoalbero CS (Disco Volante CS) was produced between 1954 and 1956. Approximately 4,500 units were produced. The 175 Super Sport monoalbero CSS was produced in 1954 and 500 units were built. All the serial numbers for the frames and motors for both bikes are available at the Agusta Museum.

Both bikes look VERY similar "externally" except the CS had a telescopic fork and the CSS had an Earles Fork. The CS had a 22mm carb and the CSS had a 25mm carb. Beyond that they look identical, but they aren't. The two things that separate these machines are serial numbers and the motor.

Over the years the the motors from the CSS have been used up in racing since the Squalo shared many of the same parts. And....since the Squalo brings more money than the Sport Bike, motors from the Sport Bike have been put in reproduction (fake) Squalo frames and sold as original. A friend of mine just sold his replica Squalo for 27k even though the new buyer knew it was a replica. The bike sold in Florida appeared to be a CSS, but the owner selling it really didn't know what he had. It was a CS made too look like a CSS.

The first thing you look at on a CSS is the mag cover on the left had side. If there are three screws holding it on then there's a chance it is the correct motor. I say that because now that the values on this bike have jumped to rival the Squalo, the bad guys are actually adding a fake screw head to the cover to make it appear to be a CSS. The CS has only two screws holding it on.

The next thing you look at are the serial numbers of the engine and frame. The CS serial number begins with a 41 and ends with an s (lower case s). The CS frame also begins with 41. The CSS engine serial number begins with a 45 and ends with an ss (lowercase) and the frame serial number begins with 40. The bad guys stamp an extra s on the CS bikes, change the fork with a replica and there you go.....a fake.

Values. Its all according to what one is willing to pay. I have been collecting MV's very quietly for 15 years and have passed on bikes I thought were over priced. That of course was only my opinion. Yet, I have always found that bike for a price that I thought was correct for me although it has taken years in some cases. In the end it really doesn't matter because we're just caretakers aren't we. However, it does care if you get screwed by buying a fake. This happens with every rare commodity regardless if it is a bike or a watch or a car or.....anything for that matter. Greed knows no bounds.

I have been working very closely with the Agusta Museum to document all the MV's. If you go to www.themvagustacollection.com you'll find the appropriate reference material for every MV. Soon we will be able to document the former MV factory race bikes in the same fashion. And I will tell you that we find mistakes in this information from time to time and correct it once we have proof.

To the credit of the guy in Florida who sold the Disco Volante for 17k, he listed the bike correctly as a Disco Volante 175. He never represented it to be a CS or a CSS.

Aside from the bike I was able to buy, I have only seen one other correct CSS Sport Bike with its original serial numbers.

I hope this information saves someone some money down the road.
 

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All the information listed is widely available on the net and in books. No biggy.

One important attribute 'Squalo 43' left out was the angle of the intake manifold on the cylinder head. The intake manifold is either horizontal to the ground plane, or rotated 45 degrees clockwise. It's been documented that the 45 degree "head" are a large valve head...these heads were installed on the "CSS" models. It looks as if the 'CSS' shown on "themvagustacollection.com" site is correct, and if you look at 'CSS' on the 'official' MV Agusta site, it shows the correct 45 degree head also. Now, this is a very hard thing to fake, and if this is a 'true' attribute of the 'CSS', then there are very few 45 degree heads floating around out there. The Florida bike had this attibute, along with the 3 bolt timing cover, and the correct SS1 25 carburator.

The fact is, I don't think anyone knows the absolute true identity of these bikes. And with all do respect to the MV museum guys in Italy, I don't think they really know, especially about the correct 'numbers'. One guy says one thing, and the other says another. This is typical of these old Italians. I've read different articles written by different Italian guys that claim they worked in the factory and saw 'this and that' and they all state something a little different.

This is my point... 'Squalo 43' states that the 'CS' engine number starts with a "41" and that the 'CSS' engine number starts with a "45", all this after stating that the Florida bike is a 'CS'. The fact is, the engine number on the Florida bike is actually "403401 SS". So what 'Squalo 43' states still doesn't jive.
 

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Resom is entitled to his "opinion" and I won't argue with him. I saw the original factory records for the CSS with the engine and chassis numbers. It has nothing to do with the old guys remembering anything. I stand by what I say. As for the Florida bike....since I assumed the Florida bike was a CS since it didn't carry a CSS serial number, I guess maybe it may not even be a CS. If Resom will provide me with the first two numbers of the frame then I will come back to him with my "opinion" of what the bike is and I will be happy to share how I arrived at that "opinion". I'm always ready to learn something new.
 

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I didn't buy the Florida bike because it went over the limit I would personally pay for real 'CSS'. Back to my original point; "An object is only worth what someone is willing to pay". I personally wouldn't be into a real 'CSS' for more than $25K. I figured to do a full proper restoration I would add another $8-10K onto the bike, so once it went over $16K I was done. Again, that's just my personal opinion. It's rare, but $25K for a 175cc single is the limit for me.

I thought "Squalo 43' was basing his ENTIRE determination soley on numbers! Squalo can say he has seen this paper, or that paper, but so can I. People can claim whatever they want. The proof has NOT been shown! And if this so called 'paper' or 'records' does exist, how does anyone know it's real?

I have shown pictures of the bike that sold in Florida that has every attribute defined by historic records of the 'CSS', except for a so called 'correct number'. Including the important fact of the large valve head.

How does Squalo know his bike is real? Someone could have stamped any so called 'correct number' into his/her frame and engine.

We can go on and on. My point has been made.... I see no PROOF in any of Squalos rebuttals. Anyone can claim they are a so called "expert".
 

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What a bike is worth to you is your opinion. I don't think anyone else cares. The market determines the value regardless of your opinion. That's why I passed on the only other real CSS I have ever seen. I didn't think it was worth 50k. You are telling the world that the bike on Ebay was a CSS that sold for 17k and I said it wasn't a CSS. Yes, anyone can say they saw the records that's true. You either believe them or you don't. That's fine. So what was the serial number of the frame on the Ebay bike? If there is no serial number on the headstock then its a replica frame. A serial number would tell me if it is a proper CS or CSS frame. The engine is a 175 with large valve head consistent with that period and while I'm certain I know the story of this bike, I am waiting for confirmation before I say something I can't back up. In the end I am 100% certain that what I have said it 100% correct, but I may have just learned something new as well....I rather enjoy the journey here. So does the bike have a frame number and what is it? As for my CSS...the engine and frame numbers matched the Agusta Museum records for this bike. And why does the Agusta Museum not share these records with the public......dumb question I know......
 
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