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Discussion Starter #1
Here are some questions I'm hoping other race fans can answer:

1. Is it possible to tune a Superbike to go faster than a current MotoGP bike? Let's assume the rules are changed to be more like they were in the 750 days, or maybe even a little more lax.

2. Would it require factory support to do this? If so, why?

3. Would it be taboo for a major series to allow this? If so, why?

I have this idea that Superbikes should be pushing harder on the MotoGP series for viewers. To your average motorcyle racing fan around the world, I think there is MotoGP and then everything else.

There has been argument that the Superbikes should be changed to more closely resemble Superstock. Why? Why not have both? I think they are both valid.

I think it could be a good idea to make the Superbikes closer to unlimited mods rather than what they have now. With the Ducati being 1200cc now, that should make it closer to "equal" to the 4 cylinder bikes now (or less than equal as piston speeds get higher?).

And if the factories leave, screw 'em. I'm fine with watching Ten Kate vs. Muzzy vs. Ferracci or something like that. They would be racing true hotrods. A series like that might not look like a step down from MotoGP as well.

When Hislop went faster on his 996 Superbike than Rossi did on his 500cc GP bike at Donington, that had an affect on me I guess.
 

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my answers to your points. 1. no i dont think its possible to make a superbike go faster than a mgp superbikes are a road based series and are not allowed carte blanche on engines chassis etc 2. it would not be necessary for factory involvement but the astronomical costs needed would make it more viable 3.yes i think that wsb has gone too far along the technical route (ala gp) and is getting away from the grass roots , i personally do not think there should be launch control, traction control,quick shifters , slipper clutches etc has these all take away from the skills of the rider , however some of these thing are now available on standard road bikes so i suppose must be allowed. it also makes the wsb series too expensive for the smaller teams to be able to compete, e.g pedercini, because they cant afford the very expensive electronics required and the knock on effect is that the grids are getting smaller like mgp, so i think a revision of the rules is needed to revive the series . this is another reason why ive taken much more interest over the last couple of years of the superstocks in britain and th european series also . full grids more smaller teams ,closer and at times far better racing than ama wsb s sports etc at a fraction of the cost has it is policed well . these are my opinions only dunno what xbikes , stp etc think but i deffo think that the wsb series needs to get back to basics and put more onus on the riders and teams
 

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Discussion Starter #3
So on point #1, why not allow more changes?

My point was, in the 750 days there were some pretty lax engine tuning rules, and as a result the 4 cylinder bikes were making some pretty stupid levels of horsepower, and this is back in the late '90s. Rumors have it that the last of the RC-45s were making about 195 rear wheel horsepower.

With more ability to modify the engine, to lighten internals, etc there could be higher engine speeds and more power than what we have now. The current rumors are that the "restricted" 1000cc 4 cylinder Superbikes are making 210 to 215 rear wheel horsepower, and the 800cc MotoGP bikes are around 230 to 240.

I realize that there is a big difference between an engine desined for street use, and one designed from the ground up as a grand prix engine.

But it seems to me that a smart tuner with more flexible rules should be able to get from a 1000cc 4 cylinder what a factory can get from an 800cc 4 cylinder. Although, once pneumatic valves become the norm, the 800cc bike is going to be able to rev a lot higher and that makes a big difference.

I also agree that less time, effort, and money should be spent on how to insulate the rider from the bike, and that effort should be spent more on going faster. Push the mechanical envelope, not the electronic one.

The teams which are really going fast these days likely are doing it due to a data advantage. I'm not saying they don't deserve to have this advantage. But it appears that once this advantage happens, it's very difficult for other teams to catch up. I would argue this is a problem with the rules.
 

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Even though he is a foreigner and therefore, according to my President, completely untrustworthy and probably planning to blow me up, I suppose that I tend to agree with devilboy. I have always thought that success in racing ought to be the reward of hard work, imagination, good reflexes and a suppressible survival instinct. IMHO, too many competitors today try to “buy” success by throwing handfuls of cash at the equipment. This is not a trend restricted to racing – any kind of serious competition that attracts serious sponsor money also attract serious investors who want to see a return on their money. Just look at the salaries and organizations that rule football (both American and that goddamn weird Limey variation), baseball, golf, high-stakes gambling … hell, even pool players sink big bucks into a stick.

My shortsighted and provincial opinions aside, though, racing has always been a rich man’s sport. If this were not the case, we would see a lot of crazy independent bastards running alongside the winners. You know the kind I’m talking about – erratic, mouth-breathing geniuses who own one pair of pants, sleep in the back of a van and live on cheese sandwiches and Cokes. They’re out there – they’re just NOT WINNING. As it is, it seems to me that the top guys are all supported by well-organized teams who have some serious financial depth behind them. Ipso facto, winning = money (and vice versa).

And in the end, as much as it offends my egalitarian tendencies (that crap’s for the French, anyway), that’s okay. It’s the big teams that are out there testing, innovating, dreaming and helping to better the breed. And they do work hard at it. It’s because of them that public nuisances like me are able to waltz into a dealership with not more than shit for brains and buy a machine that is capable of far, far more than the majority of us will ever be able to extract from it. We owe the big teams a debt of improvement that we, as individuals, would never be able to replicate.

But damn, it sure loses something in the romance department, huh
 

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deathbeforednf said:
Even though he is a foreigner and therefore, according to my President, completely untrustworthy and probably planning to blow me up, I suppose that I tend to agree with devilboy.
That's it, :bandit: I'm not meeting you again at Squires Ian. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
 

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Wasnt the clifford team running a modified R1 motor few years back.

Its not more power that will bring more viewers ,more controls are probably the answer as the tyre rule has shown in WSB. The 125 race at Brno was way more exciting than the moto gp class.
 

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Bikes stands on 2 wheels... everything depend from them.

And I think that if a prototype project ( like a MotoGP ) that don't work at 100% can be slower than a SBK with a top rider at 100% of him and good tires!

That's all I learned!

In the future we'll see... now street bikes are getting closer to racing bikes.
Some years ago the SBK was the REAL SBK!!! Bikes from the street for racing... now the companyes do racing bikes for the street that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

Is always a frame with an engine inside, suspensions and round wheels... you've to find the way to let it work!

HAVE FUN!
:p
 

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Discussion Starter #8
So Luca, I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but are you saying that you liked the days of the Yamaha R7, Honda RC-45, Ducati SPS, etc? Because I did, for sure. Those are the bikes that I wanted to buy.

I don't want a damn GSX-R1000 like everyone else has, although I have to admit they are deadly effective...

I'd rather get a factory special. Which is essentially what the MV 750 was before the 750s were pushed into irrelevance by the rules.
 

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why because im a foreigner lol ill give a further example of what i mean, going back not so many years when a bike was braking for a tight corner or hairpin you could hear the riders input by listening to him blipping the throttle and gearing down you would see the bike chatter and break traction nowadays due to electronics and slipper clutches you dont often get this instead a rider will just bang down on the gear lever and all u hear is a drone no chatter not as much sliding etc just lessens the spectacle doesnt it?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
macmivvi said:
Wasnt the clifford team running a modified R1 motor few years back.

Its not more power that will bring more viewers ,more controls are probably the answer as the tyre rule has shown in WSB. The 125 race at Brno was way more exciting than the moto gp class.
They were, but that was pretty heavily modified I think. I think they even did new head and case castings, which is beyond what a Superbike could do and still call it a Superbike.

I don't know, I think if I was the regular fan and someone asked me if I want to watch the highest paid riders or the fastest bikes, I might choose fastest bike. But I do agree that if the racing isn't competitive, it won't last.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
devilboy said:
why because im a foreigner lol ill give a further example of what i mean, going back not so many years when a bike was braking for a tight corner or hairpin you could hear the riders input by listening to him blipping the throttle and gearing down you would see the bike chatter and break traction nowadays due to electronics and slipper clutches you dont often get this instead a rider will just bang down on the gear lever and all u hear is a drone no chatter not as much sliding etc just lessens the spectacle doesnt it?
I would not agree that slipper clutches inhibit competition. For me, they are an extra safety measure when doing a really close pass. They promote passing in my opinion. You can really burn it into a corner and rely on the slipper to keep the bike in line when the going gets tough. I've made passes that I know I couldn't have made without it, but I'm not a genius at throttle control either...
 

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Moto GP is a Prototype Class and is not allowing modified Production Engines and so the WSW R1 Project died finally. So this is ruling out Produktion Bikes in any way. Further technical aids as Traction (Slide) Control, Launch Control, electronic shifting etc. depends on highly sofisticated Hard and Soft Ware. So that Moto GP Teams have multiple Soft Ware Guys sitting in their Garages. But not enough You need to invest tons of time and money do perfect Your Soft Ware by on track testing. Private Teams are far away from being able to finance this to perfection. Even Teams like Kawasaki and Suzuki struggled over this for quite some Seasons. So if You have the resources than You can get even AMA Superbike ruling. As Suzuki is demonstrating it in perfection, with Traction Control, Launch Control etc. Remains the Question why not even Honda can be competitive against Suzuki in AMA ? May Honda USA get's not as much funding or support by HRC.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
(I'm having a hard time following what you wrote)

Honda came to the traction control game later than Suzuki did.

All last year while Mladin was denying that they were using it, they were. It was glaringly obvious. Anyone with a semi trained ear could hear it. Even the Superstock bikes were using it. Amar Bazaz all but confirmed it.

Which supports my point that once a team gains an advantage in data collection and processing, it's hard to overcome no matter how much money and effort is spent. Which is why I believe Suzuki broke the rules to start with, because they knew this.

In MotoGP, Ducati simply had an advantage that probably nobody pointed out until Kevin Cameron did in his recent Cycle World article, that the Desmodromic system was allowing them to "program" the engine for greater rideability and power than the others. Once you are going faster than the competition, you are gathering data that the other teams don't have access to because they aren't going as fast. And your advantage starts there, given that you're doing the work to process it (which isn't an unfair advantage, it's just a difficult one to overcome, apparently).

A lot of things have to go right to win races at any top level form of motorcycle racing, but it seems like once some data advantage is secured, that is very difficult for other teams to overcome. At least it is in these current times. Maybe someone is already working on this?
 
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