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Put 250 canyon miles on my Senna this weekend. Sunday afternoon I stopped at ProItalia,- because my Senna was telling me that my riding gear was no longer appropriate.......! (jeans and sneakers...!).

My Senna, is the fastest, most competent, most focused machine I've ever ridden. That includes every other racing/street bike I've ever thrown a leg across....

If I was 18 yrs old again, I could lap the Isle of Man on the MV Senna with at least a 116mph average speed per lap. STOCK.

However,- the August 2006 edition of 'Cycle World' as part of their 'Master Bike' feature, described the F4 'R' as being "difficult to ride". Inspite of this, a Spanish rider turned a lap on the F4 'R', 1.5 seconds faster than the next best time.

Mark Cernicky said about the F4 'R',- "I couldn't trailbrake for beans". The consensus of the testers, was the 'R' was really difficult to ride....!!!

I was confused until this weekend............!

The Senna is super-fast but if you trail-brake, it just refuses to turn. It is essential that you're off the brakes before tipping it in.

MY QUESTION: WHY?

Master Bike '06 had all the Top Cagiva/MV guys there,- if they couldn't figure it out........... Is It Possible to Figure it out??

Incidentally, I intend to replace the stock rear shock with an Ohlins....

Kevin
 

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Kevin! please clarify what you mean with trail-brake? do you mean to turning the back end out, and slide into the turn in best Garry Mcoy style?
Maybe that is easier if you have a thump rearbrake!
 

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Johnnie said:
Kevin! please clarify what you mean with trail-brake? do you mean to turning the back end out, and slide into the turn in best Garry Mcoy style?
Maybe that is easier if you have a thump rearbrake!
Nope.
It means when you're still braking while you're turning.
Kind of like braking into the apex.
 

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khfx said:
Incidentally, I intend to replace the stock rear shock with an Ohlins....

Kevin
The former testrider of MVAgusta, Steven Casaer, told me that there is no reason that an Ohlins fork or rear shock are better than the RAC50 Marzochi fork and the Sachs rear shock on the "R". The Senna comes even with a better rear shock.


I owned a GSX-R 1000K5 before the "R". And I must admit, the "R" is more difficult to ride. The Gixxer steers a lot easier, and in "S-curves" it flips easier from side to side.

The "R" needs more input from the rider to turn it in. But once in a curve it is better, because of the better suspension and frame.


GreetZ
 

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Johnnie said:
Kevin! please clarify what you mean with trail-brake? do you mean to turning the back end out, and slide into the turn in best Garry Mcoy style?
Maybe that is easier if you have a thump rearbrake!
Hey Johnnie,

What you see of Gary McCoy sliding the rear has nothing to do with braking.

Sliding into corners is a result of downshifting!

Sliding out of corners(which Gary did a lot) was wheel spin due to opening the throttle..... precise throttle control!

You'd never want to use you rear brake that much, to the point your locking the rear wheel all the time. :)
 

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khfx said:
Put 250 canyon miles on my Senna this weekend. Sunday afternoon I stopped at ProItalia,- because my Senna was telling me that my riding gear was no longer appropriate.......! (jeans and sneakers...!).

My Senna, is the fastest, most competent, most focused machine I've ever ridden. That includes every other racing/street bike I've ever thrown a leg across....

If I was 18 yrs old again, I could lap the Isle of Man on the MV Senna with at least a 116mph average speed per lap. STOCK.

However,- the August 2006 edition of 'Cycle World' as part of their 'Master Bike' feature, described the F4 'R' as being "difficult to ride". Inspite of this, a Spanish rider turned a lap on the F4 'R', 1.5 seconds faster than the next best time.

Mark Cernicky said about the F4 'R',- "I couldn't trailbrake for beans". The consensus of the testers, was the 'R' was really difficult to ride....!!!

I was confused until this weekend............!

The Senna is super-fast but if you trail-brake, it just refuses to turn. It is essential that you're off the brakes before tipping it in.

MY QUESTION: WHY?

Master Bike '06 had all the Top Cagiva/MV guys there,- if they couldn't figure it out........... Is It Possible to Figure it out??

Incidentally, I intend to replace the stock rear shock with an Ohlins....

Kevin
Hey Kevin,

I have the same magazine and read it too. Later in the article they state that the bike need to be ridden like a 250(lots of corner speed) as opposed to the point and shoot literbikes!

If you can trust the bike going into to corners, even if it feels too fast, it'll reward you tremendously, just trust they say! Apparently, it's designed to be ridden this way, because, it sounds like it stands up a little during braking and the fuel injection(on/off throttle) was also a reason!

Sounds like, if you keep the throttle open and brake earlier, you ultimately brake less and carry more corner speed which is the fastest way out of the corner!

Anyway, this is what I gathered from the magazine, which is why it posted the fastest lap, because that guy rode it the way it should of been ridden.....lots of corner speed and very little braking-early braking!!!

That's how I read it. :)
 

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Kevin,

I am certinly no racer, but I try to get all downshifting first and then braking done prior to corner entry. I do not trail brake at all. My rear brake is for holding me inplace at stops.

To answer your ?, I suspect All braking makes the bike stand up.

The F41000 is too much bike for us mere mortals, especially in the corners where torque application requires appropriate timing.

I agree too, that when I'm riding without full gear, I feel "vulnerable." Leather is your friend!

Peter
 

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Both Altoon and I both have discussed that you really need to use counter weight and counter steering to move the F4-1000 through corners. The F4 begs to be thrown around. You need to muscle it and the bike will reward you with some insane handling.

As for braking, I agree. Leave the rear brake for the stoplights. Get your entry speed down before the corner. Hit the corner right, lean off, counter steer, roll the throttle on and hang on !
 

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Trail braking is very important to master in any group outside of "novice" group during track days. If you brake early on the track, you'll be passed on the inside going into the corner by all the other guys who know how to trail brake. I'm still trying to master/learn the art. It's a little bit hard to learn. But once you learn it, it's the tool for passing the slower guys going into a corner. trail braking is done with front tire...just feathering it. You'll be passing the guys going 20~30 mph slower than you; and in long sweaping turns, you can double apex anyway. :drummer:

MV's are on rail once the turning is intiated, but I prefer my Duc's flickability for the track...IMHO MV's don't flick as rapidly as Duc's from side to side. :blah: :blah:
 

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Trail Braking and the MV

Hey guys, trail braking is important and the reason that it is hard to do on any bike is the concept of gyroscopic force. All bikes have some issue with trail braking however, I suspect, event the new lighter wheels on the MV are heavier than the competition's. If you have a close look at any Japanese litre bike these days....they all have hollowed out spokes and the area around the axle is "hollowed out" too. My 2004 Kawasaki ZX-10R race bike tended to stand up under braking when I was leaned completely over at the apex of the turn until I switched the stock rims to Magnesium Forged Marchesini rims. Problem is solved now! So....if you want the F4R to turn on the brakes easier than it does stock, get Marchesini's forged mags and you will be very happy. Anyone hoping to be really fast as a racer or track day addict will need to trailbrake!

Ducati OEM aluminum 5-spokes (996/998), 9.25 lbs front, 12 lbs rear
Marchesini 10 spoke forged Magnesium wheels : Front: 6.04lbs, Rear: 7.76lbs

Lighter wheels will make a major difference in the handling of your bike. They will also greatly improve the acceleration and deceleration “braking” of your bike for the following reasons.

Static Weight: Each ounce of reduction of the wheels weight is equivalent to 4 ounces on the sprung part of the bike. Magnesium wheels will normally weigh at least 10 pounds less than your stock aluminum wheels. This is equal to 40 pounds of weight reduction on the bike.

Dynamic Weight: This is the weight reduction on the rim of the wheel and this is where the action is. EACH OUNCE OF WEIGHT REDUCTION ON THE RIM IS EQUAL TO ABOUT 24 POUNDS OF WEIGHT AT 100 MPH!

This WILL be the single most significant change you will make to the handling and ridability of any motorcycle.

btw, I don't sell these rims but I did buy them and I love them!!!!
 

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brianhevans said:
Ducati OEM aluminum 5-spokes (996/998), 9.25 lbs front, 12 lbs rear
Marchesini 10 spoke forged Magnesium wheels : Front: 6.04lbs, Rear: 7.76lbs
The 1000 R wheels are light:

Brembo Superlight Forged Aluminum: F 6.47lbs / R 7.17lbs MOI: unknown
Kg. 2.938 (Forged Alu Front) Kg. 3.253 (Forged Alu Rear)

Seems the front is a bit heavier than the March's but rear is lighter. so best combo is swap a standard R only the front!!

We have to wait for brembo to make the superlights in Forged Mg
 

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Wow, I did not know that! I don't know if anyone read Chris Ulrich's review of the F4 1000R in Road Racing World but he did not mention the same trail braking issues that the Masterbike test did. I wonder if this might have had something to do with the Dunlop tires they used in the test for Masterbike....
 

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Discussion Starter #16
More questions than answers! I accept the points made, but I think in someways it has to be a combination of stuff. Frame geometry, tire profile, wheel weight etc, etc..

My R1 LE has the same wheels as the Senna and will trail brake all day... my Senna has the stock Pirellis...

The more miles I've put on the bike, the easier it is to deal with. I find I can be on the brakes entering a corner, providing I'm coming off the brakes, if that makes any sense!
 

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Yes that makes sense because you are using progressively less braking force to reduce your speed as you are turning into the corner. This is the definition trail braking. You are right, many factors can and do play a role in the overall behavior or a motorcycle. When I apply the brakes in a corner with stock rims on my ZX-10R the bike has a greater tendency to want to "stand up" than it does with the lighter magnesium rims. Why, I'm not exactly sure but it has to do with gyroscopic force. Some might say, well the rim is already at an angle....the bike is already leaned into the corner. Why would it have the tendency to want to orient itself upright when already leaned? I don't know the answer to this but I can tell you that a wheel is constantly accelerating and decelerating. At 100mph any point on a 17" rim is going from 0 to 200 back to 0 20 times a second!

I found this on a 'how things work' website: very interesting....maybe we just all need to lean farther!

If you apply the brakes while making, say, a left turn on a motorcycle, the motorcycle will tend to "stand up." That is, it will tend to fight the lean you make into the turn. Why?
When you turn left, you are accelerating toward the left and your velocity is changing toward the left. This leftward acceleration requires a leftward force and that force is supplied by friction between the ground and the motorcycle's wheels--the ground pushes the wheels toward the left. However, this leftward force on the wheels also exerts a torque (a twist) on the motorcycle about it's own natural point of rotation--its center of mass. As the ground pushes the wheels toward the left, the motorcycle tends to begin rotating. In this rotation, the wheels begin moving toward the left and the driver's head begins moving toward the right--the motorcycle "stands up"! Actually, if you lean far enough to the left as you turn, an opposing torque due to the upward force that the road exerts on the wheels will balance the first torque and your motorcycle will experience no net torque--it won't stand up at all. On a high-speed turn, you must lean quite a bit to avoid the "standing up" problem, which is why motorcycle racers practically touch the ground as they turn.
 

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brianhevans said:
Yes that makes sense because you are using progressively less braking force to reduce your speed as you are turning into the corner. This is the definition trail braking. You are right, many factors can and do play a role in the overall behavior or a motorcycle. When I apply the brakes in a corner with stock rims on my ZX-10R the bike has a greater tendency to want to "stand up" than it does with the lighter magnesium rims. Why, I'm not exactly sure but it has to do with gyroscopic force. Some might say, well the rim is already at an angle....the bike is already leaned into the corner. Why would it have the tendency to want to orient itself upright when already leaned? I don't know the answer to this but I can tell you that a wheel is constantly accelerating and decelerating. At 100mph any point on a 17" rim is going from 0 to 200 back to 0 20 times a second!

I found this on a 'how things work' website: very interesting....maybe we just all need to lean farther!

If you apply the brakes while making, say, a left turn on a motorcycle, the motorcycle will tend to "stand up." That is, it will tend to fight the lean you make into the turn. Why?
When you turn left, you are accelerating toward the left and your velocity is changing toward the left. This leftward acceleration requires a leftward force and that force is supplied by friction between the ground and the motorcycle's wheels--the ground pushes the wheels toward the left. However, this leftward force on the wheels also exerts a torque (a twist) on the motorcycle about it's own natural point of rotation--its center of mass. As the ground pushes the wheels toward the left, the motorcycle tends to begin rotating. In this rotation, the wheels begin moving toward the left and the driver's head begins moving toward the right--the motorcycle "stands up"! Actually, if you lean far enough to the left as you turn, an opposing torque due to the upward force that the road exerts on the wheels will balance the first torque and your motorcycle will experience no net torque--it won't stand up at all. On a high-speed turn, you must lean quite a bit to avoid the "standing up" problem, which is why motorcycle racers practically touch the ground as they turn.
...Yes and No! What you stated is fundamentally correct for what trail-braking is (Think 3 dimensional ac- and de-celeration). However, when you factor the human element into the equation, everything changes. The trail-braking technique has to do alot with feels and riding habits, it's the same with a golf swing.

When I first used the technique in my riding, I felt the stand-up phenomenon you described but that went away with experience. The result is you can trail-brake aggressively to the apex and still have a smooth transition from straight up to full lean (Andy, a.k.a. acrulh, once told me he trail-braked hard enough that he had the handlebars wiggled in this hands.) Be forewarn that this is an advance riding technique that you will end up on your head if you ham-fist it.

On a different note, the comment in the original post regarding feedback from the tester needs to be taken with a grain of salt (Of the moto-journalists I have seen on the track, few could win a race at the local/regional race. The only exception would be Roadracing World's staffs, but as the name of their magazine implies, they should be.) Feel is a very personal thing which might or might not apply to you. There was a raging debate a little while back regarding Rossi look down in front of him instead through the corner. Anyone think that he is Rossi?! Let see some hand! :banghead:... :nutkick:
 
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