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Discussion Starter #1
What do you guys think about this? I'm increasingly getting paranoid about not having ABS. I periodically try to practice effective braking. But, in a panic situation, I may either under-brake or over-brake and lock up. If the road conditions are not optimal, very likely, then lock up is easy.

So, has anyone thought about or tried transplanting the entire braking system from RR? I'm not technically well-aware. I can only think of the following components:
  • Wheel sensors
  • Rotors
  • Calipers
  • Master/Slave Cylinders/Reservoirs
  • Brake hoses
  • Is the ECU involved? If it is, then might be no-go, as the RR's ECU wouldn't work in first gen F4 (1000 R).
Cost is not a factor. Is it possible technically without compromising safety and reliability?

You could say, why not get the RR instead? I like the first gen better, for a number of reasons. Over the years, it has been tweaked gradually with mods to suit me just fine. Besides, the first gen looks and sounds (with RG3) way better!

Ideally, I would prefer Cornering ABS. If I can't retrofit the ABS to F4, then I might sell it and get either RSV4 Factory or Duc V4 R.

Thanks.
 

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I'm old school, the ABS is in the hand. Fast riders have slow hands. Feel the front, feel the force...
Do you practice trail braking? Braking into apex, not just in a straight line? It takes a certain feel and when you have it you gain a lot of confidence.
My old F4 has the Nissen axial mounted brakes, and they are deceptive. Feels very soft at first, but I can grab a handful at speed and they provide a lot of feel and a lot of stopping power.
 
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Can't take the credit, Fast Freddie Spencer said it first...
 
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Yes this is technically possible but you will probably have to change the wheels as well to allow for mounting sensors etc.

Good news is that ABS not part of ECU but you will need a control unit. Also ABS wasn't just fitted to the RR - I think it was all post 2015 F4s.
 

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It will cost more than just trading on a new bike that has it....don't forget wiring harness and quite likely the meter.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
.....
Do you practice trail braking? Braking into apex, not just in a straight line? It takes a certain feel and when you have it you gain a lot of confidence.
......
The likely problem is not with braking into a turn/corner, but, panic braking. And, braking under sub-optimal road surfaces. I agree, the front brake offers more biting than we take advantage of. But, in an emergency, there is no time to modulate the brake with the right dose of force.

Yes this is technically possible but you will probably have to change the wheels as well to allow for mounting sensors etc.

Good news is that ABS not part of ECU but you will need a control unit. Also ABS wasn't just fitted to the RR - I think it was all post 2015 F4s.
Good call on wheels and ABS Control Unit. You're right; all Gen 2 models got ABS eventually. My assumption is that RR could have higher spec system; probably not.


It will cost more than just trading on a new bike that has it....don't forget wiring harness and quite likely the meter.
Fair point. I need to think this through whether worth doing it. Good call on harness. And, when you say 'meter', are you referring to the dash/display unit? If so, I may need to ignore that feed to display, since there may not a way to rig the analog display. I would then wonder what other dependencies the ABS Control Unit would have from other peripherals/interfaces.

I would really hate to sell the bike! I love it dearly! But, I just can't shake the feeling of not having the safety net, especially Cornering ABS.
 

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For cornering ABS you need an Inertial Measurement Unit .... which adds a great deal of complexity as those are usually can-bus system devices and also feed data to the ECU.
To equip your bike with ABS is not a simple up-grade. The time and expense will be enormous unless you can just buy a wrecked total loss ABS equipped bike on the cheap and use it and yours to build a frankenbike.
Even then the technical problems will be hard to overcome, like where to mount the ABS unit on the chassis. And the harness would have to be made from scratch to work with your old F4 EFI system.
Go on the hunt for a late model F4 that came with ABS.... you could more easily make that bike emulate your first gen bike then make your first gen bike have ABS.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Great points, esq'z me. More I think about this, more I realize the challenges. And, there are always issues/complexities that we haven't thought of! I may have to abandon this project!

Cornering ABS is even more challenging, even for a new model. MV doesn't offer a single model with it! The brand new model, Rush 1000 doesn't offer! I don't think any Japanese bikes have it. Very few offer, like Ducati, Aprilia, Triumph, et. al. It can't be retrofitted due to some of the reasons you cited.

I did think about picking up a RR. But, if I'm going to buy a new bike, it needs to have Cornering ABS, which RR doesn't have. The Duc V4 R runs stupid hot! All models of V4 run super hot; but, the R is worse. More power with the same cooling! I don't think any mod will help. Ducati Fanboys are in denial! RSV4 Factory is probably the only option, assuming I don't get hosed by it's notorious valve-train (and, a few other) issues! I really do NOT want to sell the Gen 1! But, I think I'm stuck! :cry:
 

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The Suzuki GSX-R1000R has cornering ABS.

"Exclusive to Suzuki, the Motion Track Anti-lock Brake System (ABS)** brings additional control to anti-lock braking. Like a conventional ABS system, the Motion Track Brake System provides the appropriate amount of braking force for the available traction. When the IMU detects the rear wheel lifting up from extreme braking forces, the ABS control module will adjust the front brake pressure to reduce the rear wheel lift. If the IMU senses the motorcycle is leaned over when the brakes are used, the ABS unit will adjust the brake pressure to an optimal amount to help maintain good braking force and tire grip."
 

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@henry-a ... I do believe the new B4 1000RR has all of the traction management goodies....driven by an IMU
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
The Suzuki GSX-R1000R has cornering ABS.
............
Thanks for looking it up; appreciate it. The GSXR's specs are impressive. I like their emphasize on street-friendly performance (such as gearing, etc.) while touting track-friendly features. Seems like a great bike. However, upon closer inspection of their specs, I believe it doesn't have Cornering ABS! The IMU is used with ABS, as you cited. However, following disclaimer and specs indicate that the ABS system is not Cornering ABS; it needs to be stated in the specs if they actually are:

480495


480496


With Cornering ABS, as you're aware, you can just pull the levers, mid-corner, while fully leaned-in! At least, that's how Bosch and the manufacturer that offer claim, without any disclaimer. I'll call the Suzuki dealer(s) to confirm regardless.

By contrast, here are the specs of RSV4 Factory:

480499


... I do believe the new B4 1000RR has all of the traction management goodies....driven by an IMU
Thanks, Silent. But, sadly, no; itsn't Cornering! I looked through the specs of all the models from MV's site:

480497


480498


But, that Brutale Serie Oro is a damn looker! If only had Cornering ABS, I would be seriously tempted notwithstanding that it's a naked!

Here is the route I'm contemplating: add the ABS to F4. Ride it conservatively. Then, get a bike with Cornering ABS (such as RSV4 Factory) for spirited backroad/canyon runs. So, could somone recommend a very competent shop/tech who knows the Gen 1 F4 cold, in the country (US)? I need a consult. If I decide to go through with it, wouldn't mind shipping the bike to their facility. It has to be done by a very competent tech. Thanks.
 

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You have a strange idea of cornering ABS abilities. You can't just grab a fist full while leaned over and let the computer control everything. It can't react that fast to slipping. It does make braking hard somewhat safer while in a turn, but it won't save your ass if you are ham-fisted.
Suzuki is very conservative and fearful of lawyers. They choose their wording accordingly. The GSX-R1000R IMU inputs to the ABS for cornering, just like the Aprilia, but if you just grab a handful at full lean you are going to crash, just like you will on the Aprilia.
They BOTH use the Bosch ABS system
 
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If you are riding on the street where you need cornering ABS to feel safe, perhaps you shouldn't be riding on the street. If you are riding in conditions where you think cornering ABS is the solution, then those conditions aren't friendly to riding a bike. There is no reason, on the street, where you should be anywhere near teh limit if adhesion unless you are riding beyond your capabilities.
As Ed has said, it takes 0,2 seconds for the front to dump you if it stops or loses traction
 
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Discussion Starter #15
You have a strange idea of cornering ABS abilities. You can't just grab a fist full while leaned over and let the computer control everything. .............

Suzuki is very conservative and fearful of lawyers. .........

They BOTH use the Bosch ABS system
Well, here is an article that explains the magic of Cornering ABS:

Magic of Cornering ABS

A little excerpt:

"...... The result is an unnerving, but very effective, safety net that allows riders to grab a fist-full of brakes while leaned over, without the risk of causing a lowslide crash. In other words, this is a safety game-changer....."!

You may be right that GSXR uses the Bosch ABS, though I couldn't find any reference on Suzuki's site. Will call some dealers around tomorrow and post back. From what I can see, it isn't C-ABS.

If you are riding on the street where you need cornering ABS to feel safe, perhaps you shouldn't be riding on the street. ........ There is no reason, on the street, where you should be anywhere near teh limit if adhesion unless you are riding beyond your capabilities.
........
As riders, we all know that there are infinite variables and scenarios on public streets/roads, that can be problematic. You don't need to be ripping through to be needing C-ABS as a safety net. One simple example: through back roads, in the country side, you're winding through series of left-right turns. In the middle of a turn, with some lean, you suddenly see some debris or an obstacle. Without having to sit up, you just want to bleed speed, fast. Every mile of speed bled minimizes the impact. Harder you pull the lever, you could even stop or crawl and probably able steer to a side. I mean, scenarios are endless! C-ABS is truly a game changer even at speed limits in many scenarios!
 

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Having enjoyed (not) the inside of a courtroom in product liability cases related to brake systems on motorcycles, I can tell you that most manufacturers (Suzuki especially) will not want you to think that cornering ABS is anything like what the writer in that article is claiming.
As stated when basic ABS was first introduced on many bikes..."ABS will not save your bacon if you are in over your head". In other words, don't depend on it to save you. Your experience, skills and sensibility are the first line of defense.

I may have partially misspoke on the Suzuki system. I believe the IMU is Continental. The ABS unit is Bosch.
 
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I will say, unequivocally, that ABS can be a game changer. I got to experience this phenomenon on a Race Track this past week in a 755 hp Corvette ZR1. As it was a driving school, limits of adhesion and control system were tested. 100+ mph slam-on-the-brakes while turning drills were conducted. It is an amazing system in that car.
I would never want to need it on the street. I suppose it would be nice to have it there in case of emergency.

480551
 
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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
............The GSX-R1000R IMU inputs to the ABS for cornering, just like the Aprilia, but if you just grab a handful at full lean you are going to crash, just like you will on the Aprilia.
.......
I called a couple of dealers. They had no idea what the 'Cornering ABS' was! No surprise there; for 90% of them, it's just a job, moving metal! I then called Suzuki customer service. The person I spoke to didn't know either. He is gonna check with his Technical Manager and let me know. I probably know what the answer is gonna be, if they call back!

I will say, unequivocally, that ABS can be a game changer. ..........
I would never want to need it on the street. I suppose it would be nice to have it there in case of emergency.
Agree. Safety features are to be welcomed so that we get to enjoy spirited driving/riding as long as we can! As we're talking ABS and since cars have come to play, question: would you buy a car with no ABS? I'm seriously considering an Atom 4 (or, upcoming Atom 4R). It has TC but no ABS! Lack of ABS makes me nervous; but, the want is too strong!!

480563
 

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I was a Technical manager with Suzuki...the customer relations staff are not technical experts.
The GSX-R1000R (not the base model or the standard ABS model...the premium RR model) has cornering ABS.
Here is a page from the service manual with description. Again, Suzuki is going to tell you cornering ABS will NOT save your ass if you screw up.
ABS.jpg
 
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Discussion Starter #20
I was a Technical manager with Suzuki........the premium RR model) has cornering ABS.

Here is a page from the service manual with description. .........
Oh, so, you do have inside info! That's very helpful. Thanks, Ed, for looking it up. I've added GSX-R1000R to the list. Gonna schedule a demo ride. Never considered a GSXR before. So, need to spend time understanding the brand and the model. You probably are still in the know; would you know if the next gen Hayabusa will have Cornering ABS?

In the meantime, I need to find a Master Tech anywhere in the country who could help me understand what it takes to retrofit the ABS from Gen 2. I'm gonna make an effort to keep the F4!
 
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