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Discussion Starter #1
What if...

What if Ten Kate showed up to Assen with a Honda CBR1000RR which definitely had stock engine cases, cylinder block, and head, and also frame (complete with VIN, but maybe braced a little bit), and everything else modified...

and...

Broke the motorcycle track record with some Superbike rider onboard?

And if you as the consumer saw that Ten Kate was selling parts (cams, ecu, injection, suspension, wheels, brakes, etc) that it claims are the exact same things as are on that record breaking bike, what would your opinion of Ten Kate be?

(Substitute Sigma, Vance and Hines, Muzzy, Hypercycle, Fast by Ferracci, etc for Ten Kate, any other given superbike for CBR1000RR, and any other track which MotoGP bikes run at for Assen.)

See what I'm getting at? There's a marketing angle here...
 

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No, please be more specific. :stickpoke
 

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I think he's trying get a date with 10 Kates.

No, no, just kidding. The question is about whether to defang AMA Superbikes, or blow them up to be un-freaking-limited.

IMHO, I'm for an all out class. Sure, there are safety issues, and all. But I'll admit to being a technology whore. I liked F1 when it was built more around a "race what you brung" model, and people could get creative with technology. Surely this is a tough example as F1 is pretty danged advanced. But it could be even more advanced.

Same for bikes. I'd like to see the pace of progress upped... on somebody else's dime. Yeah, yeah... we'll all pay for it in the prices of exotic bikes. Count me in. I want a laser modulated flux capacitor, and I'm afraid no roadracing series is likely to invent one anytime soon.

TC
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Exactly.

Screw the factories. Screw MotoGP. Let it become a tuner series again. Vance and Hines vs. Muzzy vs Ferracci with 240 horsepower animals capable of 220 mph.

I can't tell you how much I would love it if on a combined MotoGP/AMA Superbike weekend that the Superbikes were spanking the MotoGP bikes... And using a lot of the same chassis parts.
 

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Damn. I'm turned on.

Certainly one could make the case that tightly limited classes make for better racing. I'll definitely admit that I prefer a restricted class for personal purposes - I like the idea of whipping Reopropf fair and square (repeatedly).

So, I'll watch Superstock races. Or even a bone stock "showroom floor" series where they have to race with the MSRP sticker still on the windscreen and a 200 page owners manual dangling from the clip-ons. Mano a mano, brother. Best man wins.

But, I'll tell 'ya: I'd tune into wach Megabikes in a heartbeat, just for the goodies. Just thinking back to the introduction of traction control, and paying undivided attention to the screen to see if the concept worked. Can the rider adapt? Does it make the bike better? Are lap times going down? Is it better for braking? For getting on the throttle out of corners? SO MANY cool questions.

Heck, even watching the VIR AMA races, there was mention of a new fuel tank shape on a Kawa -- the tank now stretches back to form the seat pan. Okay, it's not a big deal, but I was titilated. Couldn't wait to see if it made a difference. And if it did make a difference, I'd be online right now scouring the internet to find one for my bike.

Remember the days when Miss Budweiser was the first hydroplane to show up with a turbine engine? I cried a little that day. Tears of joy. Totally changed the pace of marine racing and ushered in a whole host of hydro (and AERO-!) dynamic changes.

Whether AMA, GP, or a wholly new series, I'd like to see someone show up with the first race-ready jet bike. Then I'm off to Ferracci to procure said gadget for the MV.

One (addict's) opinion.
 

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This safety stuff is really becoming annoying, everything is being so restricted. I'm a huge F1 fan, watch it at any time day or night and even fly to Eurpoe to go to the races, but it's suppose to be the pinnacle of autoracing, so why is it that they have a limit on RPMS and everything else??? I know there argument for making a more even playing field, but it's clearly not working since McLaren and Ferrari is running away with it. Same thing with MotoGP, why did they have to go to 800 cc engine, what was wrong with 1000cc motors???
Somebody should have the balls to put a full out, some basic restictions (no need for people to die trying) but that's it, let them go wild and make some crazy power and put down some insane times around the track!!!

P.S. Reopropf, will you finally beat TC around the track? I can't take it anymore!!!
 

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Acruhl, I see where you are coming from, but I feel this is what will happen

1.0 A global "Superstock" type series for controlled modified road bikes. This is to keep costs down and to have buyers see their bikes raced with mods available to them. This wil be a feeder series to the WSBK and will allow riders to ride in various countries.
2.0 World SBK rules, which will be more advanced than the Superstock series. This will be so WSBK is allways the pinnacle in production based racing and no country series will be able to upstage it. It will be based on the homolgated rules for road bikes.
3.0 MOTOGP will be the pinnacle of motorcycle design in that NO parts are available to the public and the machines are 100% prototypes.
4.0 "mini" MOTOGP. The two strokes will give way to fourstrokes of smaller capacity (400 to 600cc?) Latest news is that they will be highly modified road bikes sort of like a super superbike but smaller. This will be the feeder series for the MOTGP 800.

This is my inside information
 

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Discussion Starter #9
tclinton said:
But, I'll tell 'ya: I'd tune into wach Megabikes in a heartbeat, just for the goodies. Just thinking back to the introduction of traction control, and paying undivided attention to the screen to see if the concept worked. Can the rider adapt? Does it make the bike better? Are lap times going down? Is it better for braking? For getting on the throttle out of corners? SO MANY cool questions.
It's already happened back in the late 80's/early 90's. It's just that nobody was paying attention. Formula USA.

In this here country, we had Rich Oliver on Yamaha YZR500 MotoGP bikes racing against tuned GSX-R1100s and FZR1000s, this is back when the 750s were the "Superbikes". At one point, a turbocharged CBR900RR won the title.

It was cool. And then it died. Probably because the AMA wanted it to. It was a competing series.

At one point, people got so sick of the AMA that they started their own series called NASB. Some of the history is on the 'net if you're interested.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
MVASyd said:
Acruhl, I see where you are coming from, but I feel this is what will happen

1.0 A global "Superstock" type series for controlled modified road bikes. This is to keep costs down and to have buyers see their bikes raced with mods available to them. This wil be a feeder series to the WSBK and will allow riders to ride in various countries.
2.0 World SBK rules, which will be more advanced than the Superstock series. This will be so WSBK is allways the pinnacle in production based racing and no country series will be able to upstage it. It will be based on the homolgated rules for road bikes.
3.0 MOTOGP will be the pinnacle of motorcycle design in that NO parts are available to the public and the machines are 100% prototypes.
4.0 "mini" MOTOGP. The two strokes will give way to fourstrokes of smaller capacity (400 to 600cc?) Latest news is that they will be highly modified road bikes sort of like a super superbike but smaller. This will be the feeder series for the MOTGP 800.

This is my inside information
Oh I know all of this. It's highly predictable. And to some centralized, controlling power it all makes sense doesn't it?

But since when have Americans and Aussies given a damn about what the Euros were doing way over there in Europe? :)

I've read all the stuff about how the 250cc GP class will be modified into a 600cc Superbike class, and that will then feed MotoGP. I actually would like to see MotoGP become 600cc bikes that rev to 22,000 RPM and make about 200 horsepower. I think that would start to push bike engine development.

The 990s were doing nothing for street riders because the factories didn't have to really think about tuning those engines much, it was the tires that were the limit. Tires still are the limit, and will be for a while, but at least with the 800s we're seeing that factories are having to really push tuning to make the bikes manageable. And Ducati is winning big time on this. I think they've had an upper hand in this for a long time though, they've been doing some crazy tuning via the Desmo system for many years.

So back to your points, I think it's highly valid to have a racing class that looks a lot like Superstock, because this is a showcase for which manufacturer has the best bike. I enjoy Superstock racing, the MV is highly competitive in it! But the factories will taint this with money and unobtainable parts somehow. It's always been this way.

Which is why I believe a new series should be invented that the factories will of course shun, but will be wildly popular with the public. Let the psycho tuners like Hypercycle show what they really can do. Marketing slogan: "You REALLY want to see what that bike you bought off the showroom floor can do?"

And I can't wait for someone to show up at a track day on a MotoGP track, and break the outright motorcycle lap record with one of these bikes. I think it's possible.
 

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acruhl said:
Oh I know all of this. It's highly predictable. And to some centralized, controlling power it all makes sense doesn't it?

But since when have Americans and Aussies given a damn about what the Euros were doing way over there in Europe? :)


Realistically...they have all the good tracks.
Sorry to burst the bubble. :jerkoff:

This must have been bought up many a time when wannabe racers get together over 1 or a dozen pints.So why has it not taken off ?
The guys at the top level have plenty of dough,you would think ONE of them would start a series like the one you mention. Politics,politics,bloody politics!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ozboy said:
This must have been bought up many a time when wannabe racers get together over 1 or a dozen pints.So why has it not taken off ?
The guys at the top level have plenty of dough,you would think ONE of them would start a series like the one you mention. Politics,politics,bloody politics!
I disagree that all the good tracks are in Europe. Certainly they have good ones, but that doesn't mean that we don't have tracks which are suitable.

Like I said in an earlier post, it has already happened in the US where we had highly modified 1000cc + 4 cylinder bikes vs. Kenny Roberts' team YZR500s. And later, maniac turbo powered bikes. At the time nothing could touch the YZR500 bikes. It died because the manufacturers wanted it to die.

The manufacturers already have control over the club racing series in the US with contingency. The "stock" classes are a de-facto way to govern the series into not becoming something that is competitive to AMA Superbike.

I think even most "Superbike" rules at club orgs have limits on the same things you see limits on in AMA Superbike. But nobody really builds Superbikes because there's not much money in it. This is because the factories really only pay out contingency money for the "stock" classes.

So it's not even possible for someone to build an "unlimited" bike with carbon brakes, data logging, unlimited engine internals, etc and race it because the club rules mostly won't allow it. I think there are a few smaller orgs which have a true "run what ya brung" class, but again, nobody is going to build a bike just for that to beat up on locals with mostly stock GSX-R1000s.

What needs to happen is a promoter with some advertising and media clout needs to organize this independent of the AMA, club racing orgs, TV deals, etc. Racetrack owners may like the idea, although I think they generally believe bikes are just a pain in the butt.

This will be seen as "a threat to the current order" or an "irrelevant attempt" to introduce a new series, although that's just because no factories really want to get into this game and they have a financial interest in it not happening.

But I think it will make a huge stir if someone does build a Superbike/GP hybrid (GP chassis components) and breaks track records. It's marketable from an aftermarket accessories and engine building/chassis tuning standpoint for sure.

If you don't think MotoGP and WSB are under direct control of the manufacturers in most aspects of their business, I'd like to hear about it.
 
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