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Cyber SPOTTER
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Recently a 1956 MV 175 sport was offered for sale on ebay. The top bid was $7600 - well short of the desired $11200. This seems to be more & more common across a range bikes.

This made me think amongst other things about prices & the future. I believe there is a ever shrinking pool of buyers of higher priced classics, actually given the world wide economies a ever shrinking pool of disposable incomes - occasionally you'll see someone pay a price that makes you gasp but that is becoming less & less common. A case in point - a fully trick Kay/Magni recently passed in at $80k. 12-24 months ago I believe it would have walked out the door.

There seemed be many classic bike 'investors' 5-6 years ago, it was almost an investment fad. These were not motorcycle people but rather traders that saw a potential for profit - historically they saw prices move and (much like stocks) chose to jump onto a moving train, I think the prices where forced up by an inflated demand - many of these people are getting out & that reflects in the offers by serious motorcycle collectors. As noted in 56 125 sport thread - no one is really interested in the bike at those prices.

I think going forward the value of these things may even plummet as the Z generation moves through, they couldn't care less about a historical MVs or much else really. They are the "NOW & ME'' generation, instant gratification, easily bored, move on to the next thing. That's the next generation of buyers for the current 'investors' to draw on.

What I am saying, is that those of us that love these things and can afford to buy/keep them that's great but realistically they are depreciating assets in real terms (even if the selling price is higher than the purchase price after a period of time) rather than 'investments'.

I would love to hear other peoples views on this - I am not certain the Classic section is the best forum for this discussion but thought it may be more likely to attract comment from those whom may be interested in classics.
 

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I think times are tough but for REAL Classics, there will always be a good investment value....unless you are forced to cash-up. The old saying about classics...'you can never pay too much, you can just buy a little early' still stands for me. I have some classic cars and they are still investments. My bikes I consider classics are '73 MV Sport and to a lesser degree the '48 125 only because of it's age, Ducati '73 Sport and '74 Greenframe but not my 125 scrambler or Senna (yet), Laverda SFC750, out of my Jappas, the Eddie Lawson maybe...definitely my RC30 and all my '72 and '73 Kawasakis. The modern limited editions will be worth a lot one day I believe too, and I also believe the word 'Classic' has much wider connotations now..specially with Jappas, to me a bike cannot be a classic now regardless of age if it was a piece of crap when it was new. :yo:
 

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Cyber SPOTTER
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That's an interesting view Chris :) Especially the comment about "you can never pay too much" given my background it's like fingernails on an old school blackboard :laughing: Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying you are right or wrong, I think it is an interesting debate, the kind of discussion I'd like to have with guys here over a few cleansing ales in a pub, but we are not in a pub so I thought I post my thoughts here - seems a shame no one has weighed in with an opinion or view.

When you say they will be worth a lot one day, I take it that you think generation Z will part with cash for these types of items? For anything to worth a lot or even anything for that matter you need buyers - I think that's the $64 question right what will this generation of spoilt brats want?
 

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It's always an interesting topic Rob. Randy referred to the fact that the 'true' collector of classic cars/motorcycles today is looking to put in his/her garage the vehicles they yearned after (but probably couldn't afford) in their formative years. To those people it isn't a question of what the car/bike costs now or what it might be worth in 5 years time, it's about owning and riding/driving that elusive model that they can now afford to buy. The collectable of today might not be so attractive to the collector in 20 or 30 years time, that person may well be looking to aquire something we regard as mundane now.

It's also true that speculators who have no real interest in the car/bike will (from time to time) jump on the bandwagon, but that applies to all forms of collectables, art, antiques, etc.

Gold values fluctuate according to market up and downs. I think that we are still in a global recession and the market for collectables of whatever type always takes a hit when things aren't going well in the rest of society. Supply and demand is another key factor.

I just wish I was sat on top of an oil well with a few billion gallons of crude with my name on it, don't we all!
 

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I have a long time friend with a barn full of vintage American and British bikes, whizzers, and old pedal bikes. Some he paid good money, but most he picked up for a bargain price. People know he collects them and deals seem to fall in his lap. When the time comes to clean house I think he'll be sitting pretty good no matter the market. In my opinion, if you can get a deal on something the market will come around on almost anything and you can profit. One thing is for sure, I'd rather spend the day in his barn than looking at my 401k and savings statements.
 

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King of Bling
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Hey Rob..

Good thread you've started here and hope more jump on board and express their views..

I don't think Ebay is a good benchmark for establishing what the value of classic bikes or cars are worth..

Yes Ebay is a cheap and a great advertising medium to window display your pride and joy for sale, but events like the Bonhams auctions seem to attract the more serious and appreciative buyers and collectors.

Over here in the UK the classic bike market is more buoyant now than it has been for a long time..

Obviously, the main driver of prices is the desirability of a particular model, cult status, history and numbers built at the time of production.. Depending were you are in the World, nowadays you find that certain types of bikes happen to be in fashion in that region and they tend to fetch higher premiums than they would elsewhere.

Sourcing desirable classics is a problem for collectors and dealers in the UK and this is holding up the prices .. While banks and building societies continue to offer such thin investment rates, the classic market over here is liked because of the investment potential. I’m not saying this is the same situation elsewhere in the World.

In my opinion I would buy a particular classic bike because I like that model and always hankered after one and not because it’s investment.

Rob, you know you want to buy a Ducati 998R and don’t be shy to come out of the closet and admit it.. It’s alright mate, we will forgive you and won’t hold it against you in anyway.. :)

I suppose I better look out for that burning cross outside my front door any day from now ! ;)


.
 

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Cyber SPOTTER
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Discussion Starter #7
It's always an interesting topic Rob. Randy referred to the fact that the 'true' collector of classic cars/motorcycles today is looking to put in his/her garage the vehicles they yearned after (but probably couldn't afford) in their formative years. To those people it isn't a question of what the car/bike costs now or what it might be worth in 5 years time, it's about owning and riding/driving that elusive model that they can now afford to buy. The collectable of today might not be so attractive to the collector in 20 or 30 years time, that person may well be looking to aquire something we regard as mundane now.

It's also true that speculators who have no real interest in the car/bike will (from time to time) jump on the bandwagon, but that applies to all forms of collectables, art, antiques, etc.

Gold values fluctuate according to market up and downs. I think that we are still in a global recession and the market for collectables of whatever type always takes a hit when things aren't going well in the rest of society. Supply and demand is another key factor.

I just wish I was sat on top of an oil well with a few billion gallons of crude with my name on it, don't we all!
That's a very valid point re: formative years - I think, nay, I know that's exactly why I have MVs in the garage. I remember my dear mother (who sadly is no longer with us) looking like Audrey Hepburn side saddling on a Vespa in her finest on a Sunday heading into the "paese" when I was taken to Italy for the 1st time when I was 9, I thought she was a princess. I own a pristine 1963 GS 160MKIII as tribute to a special part of my life.

What you say about supply & demand in relation to future 'wants' is even more interesting -. If you do wind up on that oil well, don't forget your friends & I'll expect an invitation to your celebratory party picked & delivered by private jet of course :smoking:

I have a long time friend with a barn full of vintage American and British bikes, whizzers, and old pedal bikes. Some he paid good money, but most he picked up for a bargain price. People know he collects them and deals seem to fall in his lap. When the time comes to clean house I think he'll be sitting pretty good no matter the market. In my opinion, if you can get a deal on something the market will come around on almost anything and you can profit. One thing is for sure, I'd rather spend the day in his barn than looking at my 401k and savings statements.
Amen to that - I think that maybe desire will diminish in future, I'd like to hope & that the next generation will take the baton ...but the signs are................

Hey Rob..

Good thread you've started here and hope more jump on board and express their views..

I don't think Ebay is a good benchmark for establishing what the value of classic bikes or cars are worth..

Yes Ebay is a cheap and a great advertising medium to window display your pride and joy for sale, but events like the Bonhams auctions seem to attract the more serious and appreciative buyers and collectors.

Over here in the UK the classic bike market is more buoyant now than it has been for a long time..

Obviously, the main driver of prices is the desirability of a particular model, cult status, history and numbers built at the time of production.. Depending were you are in the World, nowadays you find that certain types of bikes happen to be in fashion in that region and they tend to fetch higher premiums than they would elsewhere.

Sourcing desirable classics is a problem for collectors and dealers in the UK and this is holding up the prices .. While banks and building societies continue to offer such thin investment rates, the classic market over here is liked because of the investment potential. I’m not saying this is the same situation elsewhere in the World.

In my opinion I would buy a particular classic bike because I like that model and always hankered after one and not because it’s investment.

Rob, you know you want to buy a Ducati 998R and don’t be shy to come out of the closet and admit it.. It’s alright mate, we will forgive you and won’t hold it against you in anyway.. :)

I suppose I better look out for that burning cross outside my front door any day from now ! ;)


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As always John, very insightful posts, very interesting regarding your comments as to buoyancy, whilst I know Bonhams and look occasionally, I keep a closer eye on UK classic bike sales, Classic bikeshed to name a few, I see your prices constantly below ours & what I consider good buys - until you add in shipping, taxes etc etc.

I never consider bikes/cars "investments" I like you buy because I liked the model or it played some significance in my life - if it ever made me a few bob then that's a bonus. I still think that 'Faddish investment trends' did push some prices up & that correction is inevitable once the speculators move on.........


I am puzzled???

What is a Ducati 998R? Oh you are explaining- thanks think I went ADD after the words it is not an MV ;)

One special thing I like about Australia - whenever I watch bike races races the commenters (including Daryl Beattie) call it a JEWKATTY - I kid you NOT that's how they say it here - even after all these years I still piss myself during every telecast (I think my family are bored with it now but not I) - God bless Australia, they are taking the piss without even knowing it :laughing:

Expect multiple burning cross - you will be damned! Infidel!
 

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John (JDS), if that JewKatty 998 thingy becomes a burden to you, I'll take it off your hands, you might have to provide free pasta and Quality street when I come to pick it up as a sweetener tho!:laughing::laughing::laughing:
 

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King of Bling
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JEWKATTY ... Now that is funny..

That sounds like a new brand name for some Kosher Cat food.

Rob.. I would imagine a Ducati parked in your garage would be as welcome as a reggae band at a Ku Klux Klan BBQ. :laughing:

John.. Would you like some Tiramisu after your pasta main course ?:)



.:later:
 

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All Valid

All valid points gentlemen. For what it's worth, the closest thing I can think of is what happened to the comic book and sports card industry when the internet arrived. The value of both dropped by 50% because distance and availability were no longer barriers. Before, most of these items demanded a premium because the only way you could see them was by going to a convention. Then once there, you had to ask yourself if you would ever have this opportunity again. I can hop onto the internet today and find multiple copies of comic books I once considered rare (pre 1950s) and in mint condition.

Today, we have multiple mediums for vehicles - eBay, Craigslist, Cycle Trader, Agusta.net....Prior to 2007, I would not have purchased a vehicle on the web that I didn't personally inspect and ride. Last month, I purchased a bike on-line because the buyer provided all the records and I spoke to the shop where it was serviced.

Several point to the current economic crises, which is valid. However, we are not going to see another dot-com days in our lifetime. And even if the economy completely reversed itself in the next year (stop laughing) do you think everyone would suddenly return to consumption mode? Talk to anyone who lived through the Great Depression - created 2 generations of penny pinchers.

Much like my comic book collection, I bought them because I enjoyed them, not as an investment. I put my motorcycles in the same category; they are not monetary investments. However, they make me as happy as hell when I twist the wrist.
 

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Seriously tho Rob it's more about picking the true classic, timeframes and expectations. I believe the modern MV limited editions will be very valuable in 20 or 30 years but I bought all mine to ride (and of course admire) my Ducati Greenframe on the other hand is going up in value almost daily....there are 100 original 750SS and about 400 'replicas'- my Laverda SFC750 has tripled in the last 5 years- my Porsche is worth silly money now but wasn't a lot more than a normal Porky when I bought it etc etc ....tha 175 you mention is a classic but on the low end of the spectrum, thankfully there is always someone out there with way too much money :yo:you just have to pick the right moment:naughty:
 

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Anyway, none of my really good classics are for sale so investment value is not important, Poppy will get everything on her 21st birthday, I still have a few to find, including a Britten, but I know she will have one on that day....hopefully she lets Dad ride them:yo:
 

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Cyber SPOTTER
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Discussion Starter #14
JEWKATTY ... Now that is funny..

That sounds like a new brand name for some Kosher Cat food.

Rob.. I would imagine a Ducati parked in your garage would be as welcome as a reggae band at a Ku Klux Klan BBQ. :laughing:

John.. Would you like some Tiramisu after your pasta main course ?:)



.:later:
Yes that sums it up perfectly - bad enough that a Moto Guzzi is finding it's way in there in the next few weeks -possibly (God forbid) even TWO Moto Guzzis - insidious!

All valid points gentlemen. For what it's worth, the closest thing I can think of is what happened to the comic book and sports card industry when the internet arrived. The value of both dropped by 50% because distance and availability were no longer barriers. Before, most of these items demanded a premium because the only way you could see them was by going to a convention. Then once there, you had to ask yourself if you would ever have this opportunity again. I can hop onto the internet today and find multiple copies of comic books I once considered rare (pre 1950s) and in mint condition.

Today, we have multiple mediums for vehicles - eBay, Craigslist, Cycle Trader, Agusta.net....Prior to 2007, I would not have purchased a vehicle on the web that I didn't personally inspect and ride. Last month, I purchased a bike on-line because the buyer provided all the records and I spoke to the shop where it was serviced.

Several point to the current economic crises, which is valid. However, we are not going to see another dot-com days in our lifetime. And even if the economy completely reversed itself in the next year (stop laughing) do you think everyone would suddenly return to consumption mode? Talk to anyone who lived through the Great Depression - created 2 generations of penny pinchers.

Much like my comic book collection, I bought them because I enjoyed them, not as an investment. I put my motorcycles in the same category; they are not monetary investments. However, they make me as happy as hell when I twist the wrist.
Fantastic post - it really adds a whole different perspective to the discussion by drawing parallels in tradeable items & consumption.


Anyway, none of my really good classics are for sale so investment value is not important, Poppy will get everything on her 21st birthday, I still have a few to find, including a Britten, but I know she will have one on that day....hopefully she lets Dad ride them:yo:
That seems to be a common thread, the pleasure outranks the investment aspect.

I think also signigicantly you draw a distinction between classics & true classics, which is also a very important in the discussion as 'classic' is probably ised a little too freely.
 

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what will this generation of spoilt brats want?
That's a brilliant question actually Rob, certainly have to wonder about what they expect/want when they grow up....thankfully Poppy is quite sure what she wants....when she was 10 she said..."when I grow up I'm going to be an archaeologist ! ...if I have time, being World Champ and all" :yo:
 

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Great thread. As John said, I think most people buy what they lusted after as a young, poor enthusiast. I was 13 years old in 1966. That's why I really like C3 Corvettes (63-67). I've paid stupid money to own three of them 30 or so years later, when I had the available cash. Shoebox Chevys (55-57)? Not so much. I was too young when they were new.

As for investment quality cars, trucks, and motorcycles, I think there will always be a strong market for the best of the best. Duesenbergs and Vincents will ALWAYS bring blood money. They always have, and they always will. Why? Good question. Several reasons in my opinion. Rarity, esthetics, performance, uniqueness, exclusivity, etc. Cache is the right word, I think.

On the other hand, Hemi Cudas are hot today because the people my age that have money have run the prices into the stratosphere. As we die off, Hemi anythings will cool off. Why? They were poorly built low quality Chryslers, for goodness sake. Tomorrow's enthusiast with money won't have the same interest.

Today's ultra high end collector has run the price of a Hemi Cuda beyond the price of a Duesenberg. That won't last because the Duesy is a true investment blue chip vehicle, and the Hemi never will be.

These examples are of automobiles, but similar examples exist in the motorcycle world.
 

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As a 21 year old bloke, and still very new in this world: I love classics, and one day I hope to have a garage full of them. One of my favourite bikes is from the 70's.

One day when I'm nearing your folks age now and I have a bit of money (hopefully :D ) I'll go buy all ya classics off ya!

Quite a few of my mates have quite a passion for the classics. So don't give up on us young bucks yet folks :D

Love this forum
 

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As a 21 year old bloke, and still very new in this world: I love classics, and one day I hope to have a garage full of them. One of my favourite bikes is from the 70's.

One day when I'm nearing your folks age now and I have a bit of money (hopefully :D ) I'll go buy all ya classics off ya!

Quite a few of my mates have quite a passion for the classics. So don't give up on us young bucks yet folks :D

Love this forum
You, my young friend, are the exception, not the rule.
 
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