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Discussion Starter #1
Marquez has won Honda the manufactures championship as he is the only rider good enough to make the Honda RC213V competitive. Marquez is the only rider to give Honda manufacturer points yet the number 1 priority for 2020 is to make to RCV213V rideable for other racers. Ducati is the best bike in MotoGP but Yamaha, Suzuki, KTM all are better bikes than the Honda RCV213V. And without Marquez Honda has no chance to win in MotoGP as no other rider can even compete on the RCV213V..... THIS IS QUOTES FROM THE ANOUNCERS/PADDOCK INSIDERS. Crutchlow, Nakagami, Lorenzo all 15,16th 20th and the RCV213V was all over the place like there tires where worn down to threads..... Yes , if Quarterarro signed for Ducati I think he could beat Marquez on the RCV213V BUT HOW LONG CAN MARQUEZ GET AWAY OVER RIDING SUCH A POOR HANDLING BIKE BEFORE HE GETS HURT BADLY? Would like to see Marquez on Ducati who will HAPPY to design a bike JUST for him and leave Quarterarro on Yamaha who will be happy to design bike just for him.. If Marquez signs for Honda I will have no respect for Marquez father. His father should be thinking of safety over money . being marquez still lives at home dad has influence


I digress...I do believe Marquez is the first rider in history to carry the entire manufactures Championship and on a crap handling bike... Amazing … Marquez is the best rider ever AND he might have competition in Quarteraro. Can you imagine them as team mates ?
 

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I don’t disagree with you on the Honda thing. To win the title and currently leading the manufacturers championship single handedly with 4 races left is incredible. Honda are bringing their bike into disrepute, you don’t need to be a master at reading between the lines or people’s faces to see what they think of the bike.

I’m not sure if it isn’t of Marc’s making though and him excelling or liking a loose bike which just doesn’t work for the conventional style
of other riders.

It would certainly be interesting to see him try another bike, that said, his is a bitch of a bike by conventional standards but it is HIS bitch and he clearly knows how to get the best out of it. It’s a remarkable feat and he is the most remarkable rider of modern times imho, I put him up there with the likes of Ayrton Senna and Colin McRae, he’s just on another level!

There’s some great talent in moto gp, in particular for me is Fabio and Zarco, the latter I truly hope finds a seat for next year.

I don’t think Quartararo and Marquez would be a good match as team mates personally, it would suppress Quartararo’s fabulous performances.
 

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Most will know that I enter this thread with a huge Honda bias. I purchased my first in 1970, and presently own 6 Hondas of various years.

There is no doubting that MM is a true talent, and he has demonstrated that (as I have mentioned in another thread) in 125s and Moto 2.

However, I still shudder at the constant criticism of the Honda not handling. It is universally accepted that Honda has been tagged with the 'poor handling bike' syndrome since the days of the 500s. I, and many others will well remember commentators bagging both Gardner's and Doohan's bikes as bad handlers whereas Rainey's Yamaha and Schwantz's Suzikis were gems. In those days, like today, the teammates, and I refer to Sinichi Ito and Tady Okada (Honda) and Doug Chandler, Kevin Magee and Darryl Beattie (Suzuki) fell far behind the number one riders, although not quite as far as Crutchlow, Nakagami and Lorenzo.

In ensuing years we saw Doohan tailed by Creville in many races, with Creville later taking the title in 2006. We also saw Pedrosa and Stoner master the Honda.

I guess what I am leading to here is that is it really the bike or are Crutchlow and Nakagami so hot and cold, depending on their circuits, that they are actually discrediting the bike's abilities?
I still put Lorenzo aside on this because of injuries, but do acknowledge his statements that the 2018 bike was better than the 2019.
 

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The Honda being poor handling without Marquez is a constantly repeated statement by spectators (and Cal Crutchlow). But what credible source do we have in regards to the potential of the bike? Marquez is a gentleman in regards to his employer and will be diplomatic as long as the machine is fast enough for him to win. And for your market value it is also nice if everyone is convinced that you are the sole factor in the winning formula.

But taking a look at the other riding personnel on Honda machines, who is really a solid indication. Lorenzo has suffered an almost paralyzing injury and he has shown to need some time to adjust to a new bike. Crutchlow is the third one riding a 2019 RCV and his results have always been diverse, to put it nicely, whether on Yamaha or Ducati.

Jan Witteven (Ex-Aprilia race director) said that there are two fractions of bikes, the easier handling Inline 4's (Yam and Suzi) and the more difficult handling, but powerful V4's. The backward spinning crankshaft of the inlines balances the (gyroscopic, I think) effects, enabling better handling and higher curve speed. The V4 has aerodynamic and power output advantages, but they come along with negative handling effects.

It seems that not all riders seem to be adjustable to the V4 concept. Lorenzo and Zarco would be the examples for struggling when changing to the V4, while Vinales could instantly impress when having changed from Suzuki to Yamaha. Stoner and Pedrosa as the last significant Honda riders in the pre-Marquez era have always (mostly) been on the V engines.

So I would be curious if Joan Mir, Alex Rins or Fabio Quartararo would be able to manage the switch. An immediate real test on how good or bad the Honda really is, would be if they hired one of the Espargaros who are both proven V4 riders.

Off topic, but anyway: As far as Zarco is concerned: I will not miss him. He might have talent, but no team should hire him, I think. His conduct at KTM was so unprofessional that he disqualified himself for all future MotoGP ventures. I am really not a KTM fan, but one simply does not join a factory team as a rookie and behave like that...especially not when your results are in no relation to your salary. No matter how bad the bike's performance has been, you do not comment with "Sh*t chassis, sh*t power delivery". Or one simply does not cancel half a test day in Brünn when you have not nearly achieved your testing goals. How can you honestly expect that your crew will still support you after that.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
NITO I can see your thinking but Spencer who style was the corbon copy of marquez rode the NS500 (a GREAT handling Honda) and everyone could ride the NS500 with ease. Nigel I am impressed with your 500cc history BUT the NSR500 wasn't a bad handling bike to EVERYONE just Lawson who was embarrassed AND BAD MOUTHED THE nsr500 as he was SUPPOSED to be faster than Gardner but GARDER WAS FASTER THAN LAWSON EVERYWHERE UNTIL HE CRASHED BREAKING HIS FOOT SO BADLEY IT ENDED HIS CAREER. MANY people could ride the Honda NSR500. The Honda RCV213V is a poor handling bike , you can literally SEE IT. THE WHOLE MOTOGP CLASS is at a all time low in chassis development VS power output. The Suzuki is touted as a GREAT handler but really is just how a MotoGP bike is supposed to handle. Ducati 2nd because they didn't loose ground during power increase , then Yamaha/KTM and they are at least trying . Honda is just relying on Marquez to save them. Marquez will most likely sign out of habit like Roberts did even though Yamaha let him hang. (but when he said he would leave , Yamaha went 100% on chassis design =12 different bikes 2 years.(ow54 to ow 72 some never released) GIGI has made Ducati the best bike on the grid and the safest choice for Marquez. The Suzukis lack of power would have Marquez over riding also) I HOPE IM WRONG AND HONDA IS DEVELOPING A WHOLE NEW BIKE IN SECRET . But Honda says its number 1 priority is making a MotoGP bike for other riders styles. Honda was saying they do not need marquez and he was leaving so why develop bike for him . NOW they want him and say Marquez will sign 20 million$ contract, The highest contract ever.
 

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. . . the NS500 (a GREAT handling Honda) and everyone could ride the NS500 with ease. Nigel I am impressed with your 500cc history BUT the NSR500 wasn't a bad handling bike to EVERYONE . . .
Here is just one quote from the following interesting report: 'In an effort to improve the NSR’s handling and traction characteristics, many new frames were tried during the season.'
https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2010/02/13/honda_nsr500_motogp_racing_history/

Further comment from Wayne Gardner:
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2017/october/honda-nsr500-two-stroke/
https://www.cycleonline.com.au/2009/01/01/history-the-wizs-weapon/

Clearly, there were repeated concerns about the handling capabilities of the Honda 500s.
 

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Roehr: I see you backing away from the claim he is going to Ducati now mate :grin2:

NO WAY the Ducati is the second best handling bike in the paddock. It holds up the Yamaha in corners all race long. The Dukey and Honda battling for 3rd/4th best handling bikes, but both make up for it with almost equal buckets of power.

Honda is not saying Marquez is not important by trying to design a more rounded motorcycle. I think that statement is ignorant. They are realising they have developed a bike to suit only one rider which means if anything ever happens to him they will be in the wilderness until they can redesign the chassis. And isn't this what you want? You claim the bike is shit, so if they redesign it to be a better all rounder won't that solve the apparent issues you speak of? The fact development has pushed so far this way for Marquez makes me wonder if a switch to anything that doesn't ride the same way will prove to be a big problem for him. This isn't to say Honda did the wrong thing pushing development to Marquez wishes. It has brought them 6 WCs. IMO it goes completely the opposite to what you claim and suggests they understand the rider is important in the package. The last one I heard of that that dealt with Honda and that myth was Rossi and before him Doohan. I think they learnt their lesson when Rossi when to Yamaha and won the WC in 2004 when they had not won a WC since 1992. He brought Yamaha back into the game. Alot of Japanese pride was swallowed that year. I think Roehr's Marquez bias (obsession) is making it difficult for him to be objective. Personally I think it makes sense for Marquez to stay with Honda because he keeps winning WCs on that bike that was developed for him and comfortably at that too. The relationship between Honda and marquez is reported through many sources to be great. He has alot of say. Look at what they did to bring him more HP between 2018/2019. I was stunned at just how much quicker the bike is this year. It's equal power spelt the end to Dovis challenge even though Dovi likes to claim early season carnage did. He has rarely been abale to affect the races like he did last year. Honda's development of the engine over the winter cancelled out his nearest rival. If I was Marquez I would be thinking "job well done boys". Frankly the Ducati didn't make big jumps between 18 and 19 like the other makes and results show that. They can't power past the Hondas like in 2018 anymore and the power difference doesn't make as much difference between the Dukes and Yamahas/Suzuki anymore beause they have narrowed the HP gap and are so much better in the handling generally. AND it is really naive to claim his dad just wants the money from Honda. When I see that blokes face when his boys are racing I don't see a man motivated by $.

If Yamaha can get within 5kph top speed on the straights of Ducati and Honda over winter they will have a real shot at the WC next year. Quarto being the obvious shining light at the moment, but his inexperience may cost him. IMO, nit ruling out next year, he is more likely to have the experience to really challenge in 2021 for the overall. Marquez is just so experienced and cunning as a racer I think he still has an advantage in 2020 .BUT if Yamaha can get that close Vinales will really come into contention and maybe Morbidelli just to mess things up. I don't think Rossi will ever be another WC contender again, but he does have another race win in him IMO.

I will say Yamaha are very likely to win the constructors next year on current form. They have an improving package and great depth of riders, where Honda has made some bad choices for riders other than Marquez.BUT alot happens over winter so we will have to wait and see.

I agree with Flex on most of his commentary, IMO Pol would go well on the RCV as he has on the KTM which handle in a similar manner from all reports. The same reason I think Marquez would go well on the KTM. My KTM fixation with Marquez isn't claimed inside insight as some like to imply with their comments in here. I just think the Red Bull connection between Marquez and KTM cannot be ignored along with his history with KTM. I just think it is a really obvious option in the future. I'm stunned at how much progress they have made since coming to Moto GP. They must be pouring a serious amount of money into it.

Also agree Zarco has burned bridges that will ultimately mean he will find himself in WSBK. There is no space in factory Yamaha for him and he burnt his bridges with Suzuki, both the two types of bikes that suited his riding style in Moto GP.

I'm really hoping for Yamaha and Suzuki to make alot of power over winter so we can have some great racing next year.

An interesting idea to ponder is how dominant his brother has been in Moto 2 this year after a slow start. It is not inconceivable to think he may be the man to thwart his brothers accumulation of WCs in the Moto GP class. Now wouldn't that make for some juicy viewing! Within 2 seasons we may be watching a 3 way battle between Marquez, Marquez and Quarto...:grin2::grin2::grin2:
 

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When in the early 2000's at the beginning of Schumacher's dominance Ferrari stated that they would now focus on Barichello's wishes for the further development of the Ferrari F1 car. When asked if something was up, they precised that Schumacher was very adaptable and anyway fast, and that they wanted to bring the second car closer by adjusting it to Barichello's needs. I see a parallel here.

If Honda has developped the bike towards other riders' style, then this is a clever form of risk management, just as Glenno pointed out: Marquez may be injured, and then someone should be able to step in competitively with this machine. In the potential event of whatever injury that takes Marquez out for two or three races, at least the other factory machines should "steal" as many points as possible in the meantime. It doesn't say anything about Honda wanting to get rid of their number one rider.

And that a company like Honda that also has to justify a 80Mio annual MotoGP budget will never publicly put the rider above the team is just natural. It is the job of HRC to best possibly present Honda's engineering capabilities and not Marquez' riding skills. So of course they will always underline that their bike is a championship bike regardless of the which rider is piloting it.

I still hold the view that Marquez will not go anywhere, stay with HRC and collect titles. Out of the other options I would hold the KTM switch for the most realistic one. Although KTM's boss said he would see a double sided risk with hiring Marquez: If MM succeeded, then it would be because of Marquez, if he did not people will blame KTM's inability to build a championship bike. But if there will be the chance to hire Marc, anyone will do, no matter what one has said before.
 

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Read today that MM and Honda are in the advanced stages of his 2021 contract renewal.

Brilliant rider - probably will go onto become statistically the GOAT. Whatever, just wonderful to be able to watch a genius at work.
 

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I just wish people wouldn't post race or championship results in thread titles. Speculation or fact. It is simply rude to those of us who cannot watch the races until, sometimes, weeks later.
 
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Fair point, I wanted to watch the race, the minute I turned on my phone Facebook comes up with Mark Marquez holding his 8 ball and the heading something about wins championship after winning race!! Kind of ruined the race for me ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Nigel more info I said he should or it make sense to go to Ducati and offed 15 million to go to Ducati. The Yamaha has gotten better but the Ducati is still considered the 2nd best handling bike. Dovi is just a mediocre rider at MotoGP level. When I heard Hondas crew chief say Marquez was signing 2 more years then leaving, I believed him. Crew Chief are the first to know . Marquez knows the bike is crap handling bike. He just figures he can outride everyone else . At least Honda was honest and said the bikes handling stinks but we will give you power . Honesty best policy IMHO. BTW the NSR500 had issues with short powerband not Handling. The RCV213V has Handling problems= chatter , instability under braking head shake, turn in ect Power band problems are much easier to fix than Handling problems

Havnt been on feeling lousey . ttl8tr
 

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Nigel more info I said he should or it make sense to go to Ducati and offed 15 million to go to Ducati. The Yamaha has gotten better but the Ducati is still considered the 2nd best handling bike. Dovi is just a mediocre rider at MotoGP level. When I heard Hondas crew chief say Marquez was signing 2 more years then leaving, I believed him. Crew Chief are the first to know . Marquez knows the bike is crap handling bike. He just figures he can outride everyone else . At least Honda was honest and said the bikes handling stinks but we will give you power . Honesty best policy IMHO. BTW the NSR500 had issues with short powerband not Handling. The RCV213V has Handling problems= chatter , instability under braking head shake, turn in ect Power band problems are much easier to fix than Handling problems

Havnt been on feeling lousey . ttl8tr
Dude, earlier in the season you were saying the Ducati was the best handling bike. Then Suzuki won one race against Marquez and you have completely changed so it is now top. It has been the best handling bike all year. I do remember pointing that out to early in the season. There was alot of interest in the Suzuki pre season from alot of people in Moto GP. It is the best bike they have made for some time. It did n't suddenly get better when Rins beat Marquez. You seem to see everything through the Marquez prism. If they beat Marquez the bike is suddenly great. Rins is a great rider on a slow bike.
Ducati has significant understeer problems on the exit of corners. The riders themselves state that. Yamaha is the 2nd best handling bike in the paddock without a doubt. It is not far off the Suzuki and is a better rounded product. Ducati consistently hold up the Yamahas in corners. Do we not watch the same races?

3rd is a toss up between Honda and Ducati. Personally I can't split them, I think they are both very close all round with perhaps the Duke having alittle more power/top speed in some circumstances.
 

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An interesting development potentially!! Zarco maybe to go to LCR while Nakagami has shoulder op!

https://www.autosport.com/motogp/news/146524/exktm-zarco-set-to-replace-nakagami-at-lcr
Nice pick up. That is really good thinking by LCR when Zarco is hungry for a contract. Gives them a chance to have a good look at him and him a look at the honda without having to sign him. I will be very interested to see how it turns out. I suspect it won't suit him like the KTM but would love to be proven wrong. He should atleast get better results than on the KTM.
 

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. . .That is really good thinking by LCR when Zarco is hungry for a contract. Gives them a chance to have a good look at him and him a look at the honda without having to sign him. . . I suspect it won't suit him like the KTM but would love to be proven wrong. He should atleast get better results than on the KTM.
Still no public confirmation on this. I agree it will be interesting.

Also interesting, and ironic in a way, that our friend @[email protected] has suggested that Marquez would suit the KTM because of his familiarity with V4 power delivery. I wonder then, if this might apply in reverse, as in Zarco's ability to adapt to Honda's V4 - duly acknowledging they are different chassis.
 
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