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https://www.motorcycle.com/products/lithium-motorcycle-batteries-myths-vs-realities
Read it all and apply it to your specific situation.
Read it all and apply it to your specific situation.
Li-Po versus Lead Acid, a decent article.
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Thank you for this article.
HP
HP
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I put a 19AH Shorai in the Dragster and it cranks like Robert Downy Jr on Saturday night. The charger (BMS) is small & light and comes with a nice cable that can be installed on the bike permanently. The Shorai is 2 Lb 6 Oz vs. 6Lb 13Oz of the Yuasa I took out.
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5,114 Posts
I've got Shorai batteries in 3 of my bikes, and when the others' lead acid batteries die, will go Lithium in those. All my Shorai are 4+ years old and still going strong. Pretty sure weight reduction in my track bike is worth a couple of seconds a lap. >
My brute has killed 2 out of 4 Shorai's in the last 5-6 years probably due to a gremlin batter draw and me not paying attention until 1 of the lith cells always dies. Shorai warrantied one but refused the other due to... whatever the reason. It's now back chunky AGM even though the Shorai always started the bike WAY WAY better.
The lith-ion has been running fine on the Piaggio scooter for years though. Also, that motorcycle.com piece seems like paid advertisement by Full Spectrum.
The lith-ion has been running fine on the Piaggio scooter for years though. Also, that motorcycle.com piece seems like paid advertisement by Full Spectrum.
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5,114 Posts
Yeah, Shorai are great unless neglected. I have 7 Battery Tender Plus's on a power strip in my garage that is connected to a 7-day timer, set to run 18 hours one day per week. Parasitic draw varies by bike, but I wouldn't let a Shorai sit for more than a few weeks without plugging into an appropriate charger for a day
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369 Posts
I’ve always used Yuasa batteries, but my Ducati 907ie has a flat battery and used the big YTX20. It has the same battery I bought it with which is now knackered. As a result I’ve now plumped for my first lithium battery, it’s a Shido one. It weighs 1.4kg vs 6.7kg for the lead acid one. A 5.3kg saving!! That’s huge from just 1 item!! I appreciate not all batteries are that big or heavy but it’ll be interesting for me to see how I get on
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?
Stock Yuasa battery lasted 8 years......30,000mi on my Brutale 910R
Weight?
The silver star anchors on my '05 F4 got replaced by Mg Marchesinis, the swing arms on both are a kg lighter '10+
ones that are 20mm longer
Brutale got Mg Marchesinis too:grin2:
Don't need Chinese battery cells hand genading in my shop or on the road:wink2:
Stock Yuasa battery lasted 8 years......30,000mi on my Brutale 910R
Weight?
The silver star anchors on my '05 F4 got replaced by Mg Marchesinis, the swing arms on both are a kg lighter '10+
ones that are 20mm longer
Brutale got Mg Marchesinis too:grin2:
Don't need Chinese battery cells hand genading in my shop or on the road:wink2:
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369 Posts
I’ve had Lipo batteries for years with RC cars with no problems, you just need to ensure you charge them correctly with a suitable charger. Lipo were considered the more dangerous of the lithium batteries. So much so, that Tamiya wouldn’t offer them and instead only offered Life batteries. The Shido lithium batteries are Life which are already the safer offering and now used in some oem installations, including Honda so I’ve read.
They’re perfectly safe, so long as you use a lithium dedicated charger, my noco battery charger for example has a lithium programme on it. You can’t hook up a regular charger or high voltage jobbie because you will damage it and could cause a fire. So as long as you take some very basic precautions, it needn’t be a problem.
They’re perfectly safe, so long as you use a lithium dedicated charger, my noco battery charger for example has a lithium programme on it. You can’t hook up a regular charger or high voltage jobbie because you will damage it and could cause a fire. So as long as you take some very basic precautions, it needn’t be a problem.
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502 Posts
Luddites R'US, safe new world
I also had a glass desk in a paperless office.
no safe, Honda made, PC
for the night,
and the safe computer on the safe glass desk in the safe paperless office.
The glass desk safely caved in from the heat of the burning PC
some papers left in the paperless office fell in the blaze.
Water, I learned, stops safely the paper fire but less safe with battery fire.
If using, as a precaution, a dedicated wall wart
basic, common sense, precaution
won't the extension cord limit the range of the Dragster.
I’ve had for years some in portable computers phones and diverse gizmos.
I also had a glass desk in a paperless office.
Left the safe charger brick on the safe PC
no safe, Honda made, PC
for the night,
and the safe computer on the safe glass desk in the safe paperless office.
A fire started safely in the night.
The glass desk safely caved in from the heat of the burning PC
some papers left in the paperless office fell in the blaze.
Water, I learned, stops safely the paper fire but less safe with battery fire.
On my Dragster the charger, bolted to the left side, looks like a regular charger.
If using, as a precaution, a dedicated wall wart
basic, common sense, precaution
won't the extension cord limit the range of the Dragster.
Attachments
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23,110 Posts
I am going to assume the above post is meant as entertainment; however, some do not understand things as such.
The discussion is about wall chargers and Li-Po and the need for a wall charger to handle the needs of a Li-Po battery without damage.
Desulfating chargers can damage Li-Po batteries.
As for the "charger" identified in the above photo...well, while it does provide the requisite voltage to charge the bikes battery, it is a Voltage Regulator...there is a difference.
The discussion is about wall chargers and Li-Po and the need for a wall charger to handle the needs of a Li-Po battery without damage.
Desulfating chargers can damage Li-Po batteries.
As for the "charger" identified in the above photo...well, while it does provide the requisite voltage to charge the bikes battery, it is a Voltage Regulator...there is a difference.
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502 Posts
Perfectly safe ... lost in translation
Not a bit.
They tried all the wiggle tricks in their book.
or had no safe wall to plug no safe wall wart nearby.
like this device, bolted to the Dragster,
a voltage regulator that could blithely ignore everything about desulfate, califate, or zanyface,
charging a Li-ion battery?
Battery malfunction :surprise: fire,
right under the gas tank,
what could go wrong?
PC reseller, PC maker (warranty claim), even insurance gnomes didn't seem entertained.
Not a bit.
They tried all the wiggle tricks in their book.
Logan International Airport (BOS) mebbe didn't know about desulfating and damage
or had no safe wall to plug no safe wall wart nearby.
Difference
like this device, bolted to the Dragster,
a voltage regulator that could blithely ignore everything about desulfate, califate, or zanyface,
charging a Li-ion battery?
Battery malfunction :surprise: fire,
right under the gas tank,
what could go wrong?
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369 Posts
Fine, have a very heavy LEAD ACID battery instead. I ruined a pair of jeans with one that leaked over them on installation I've had them for far too long and just like nicd on rc cars, they're a bit crap. All power tools have now gone lithium because the risks when not operated by morons is at a point where the tolerability of risk is acceptable to society, manufacturers and the government at large.
If one considers oneself to be unqualified, unsuitable, untrustworthy to read instructions or take basic precautions and do some basic research or are particularly risk averse then steer clear. Reality is, if your motorbike is in good working order and you use the correct charger the risks are relatively low. Yes one shouldn't really charge anything unattended yet pretty much everyone charges their phones while asleep on a bedside table, with phones that have increasingly more powerful lithium batteries and higher voltage fast chargers, what could possibly go wrong
The Regulator is fine to charge a lithium battery, unless it's defective in which case, that could be a risk granted. But then many italian bikes had dreadful rectifiers, wiring and plastic fuel connectors, like this Caponord which managed this without a lithium battery. It's best to check rectifier voltage. Anything over 15 volt is a no no. They recommend on older bikes, mid 90's or earlier to upgrade to a more modern rectifier.
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The problem with some chargers is that they run certain modes at much higher voltages (such as desulphating). If you keep overcharging a lipo at high voltage it will be damaged. There are plenty of videos on youtube of lipo fires, watch them and you'll be shit scared of having anything lipo, but the reality is that every video has an imbecile purposely overcharging them for some time while they swell and smoke until eventually they catch fire, or an RC model crashing at high speed which damages the soft cell packs puncturing them causing them to burst into flames. On a motorcycle, in a hard case and mounted in a dedicated tray it's highly unlikely.
It's certainly not something anyone should fit to their bike unless they feel comfortable doing so.
I've quoted Shido blurb below, link here;
https://www.afam.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/SHIDO_MANUAL_EN_2019.pdf
"As a technology already embraced in the mobile phone, computer and power tool industry, lithium power cells are slowly beginning to replace traditional lead-acid batteries in high performance automotive applications.
Shido Lithium batteries offer massive weight savings compared to lead-acid, up to 80%/5kg in certain applications, and have the same size, shape and terminal position as the original fit. They can be mounted in any position; perfect for special builds.
Please use a lithium compatible charger. Please note for older bikes (mid 90's and earlier) we recommend updating the charging system to a modern voltage rectifier/regulator. Damaged voltage regulators can over charge and damage lithium batteries."
I've had them for far too long and just like nicd on rc cars, they're a bit crap. All power tools have now gone lithium because the risks when not operated by morons is at a point where the tolerability of risk is acceptable to society, manufacturers and the government at large. If one considers oneself to be unqualified, unsuitable, untrustworthy to read instructions or take basic precautions and do some basic research or are particularly risk averse then steer clear. Reality is, if your motorbike is in good working order and you use the correct charger the risks are relatively low. Yes one shouldn't really charge anything unattended yet pretty much everyone charges their phones while asleep on a bedside table, with phones that have increasingly more powerful lithium batteries and higher voltage fast chargers, what could possibly go wrong
The Regulator is fine to charge a lithium battery, unless it's defective in which case, that could be a risk granted. But then many italian bikes had dreadful rectifiers, wiring and plastic fuel connectors, like this Caponord which managed this without a lithium battery. It's best to check rectifier voltage. Anything over 15 volt is a no no. They recommend on older bikes, mid 90's or earlier to upgrade to a more modern rectifier.
The problem with some chargers is that they run certain modes at much higher voltages (such as desulphating). If you keep overcharging a lipo at high voltage it will be damaged. There are plenty of videos on youtube of lipo fires, watch them and you'll be shit scared of having anything lipo, but the reality is that every video has an imbecile purposely overcharging them for some time while they swell and smoke until eventually they catch fire, or an RC model crashing at high speed which damages the soft cell packs puncturing them causing them to burst into flames. On a motorcycle, in a hard case and mounted in a dedicated tray it's highly unlikely.
It's certainly not something anyone should fit to their bike unless they feel comfortable doing so.
I've quoted Shido blurb below, link here;
https://www.afam.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/SHIDO_MANUAL_EN_2019.pdf
"As a technology already embraced in the mobile phone, computer and power tool industry, lithium power cells are slowly beginning to replace traditional lead-acid batteries in high performance automotive applications.
Shido Lithium batteries offer massive weight savings compared to lead-acid, up to 80%/5kg in certain applications, and have the same size, shape and terminal position as the original fit. They can be mounted in any position; perfect for special builds.
Please use a lithium compatible charger. Please note for older bikes (mid 90's and earlier) we recommend updating the charging system to a modern voltage rectifier/regulator. Damaged voltage regulators can over charge and damage lithium batteries."
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While not a big issue on bikes, Lithium needs a controller to charge correctly and safely. The protection circuits are in the bike batteries them selves as the automotive regulators do not provide protection. In my world of medical devices, I design for a mixture of primary and rechargeable cells including lithium. Our issue is that some batteries have protection circuitry built in & some do not, so we have to provide it. Many 'repairs' of our equipment ignore this and replace the lithium with the cheapest they can find (normally without protection) that's where my issues occur.
As for bikes, I've run Lithium in my race bikes and road bikes for years. Yes a different charger, and a 1/2 crank first if its very cold, then start as normal. On my road bikes I use an equivalent capacity, on the race bikes it tends to be the smallest I can get a way with and the largest I can fit. Then I jump from a separate battery, especially important if total loss system.
With the F4, in standard trim it is so top heavy, with the super weight under seat exhaust and battery, anything I could do to remove mass from the top of the bike was a must. Changing to Lithium , meant I can still east a pie Again this is a personal preference.
As for bikes, I've run Lithium in my race bikes and road bikes for years. Yes a different charger, and a 1/2 crank first if its very cold, then start as normal. On my road bikes I use an equivalent capacity, on the race bikes it tends to be the smallest I can get a way with and the largest I can fit. Then I jump from a separate battery, especially important if total loss system.
With the F4, in standard trim it is so top heavy, with the super weight under seat exhaust and battery, anything I could do to remove mass from the top of the bike was a must. Changing to Lithium , meant I can still east a pie
Again this is a personal preference.1 - 19 of 19 Posts
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