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Discussion Starter #1
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MV Agusta 175 CSS
This bike has earned the original name of Disco Volante by the form of its bulbous gas tank. Developed by Mario Rossi, after designs made by the Count Domenico Agustain the early 1950’s. Representing the super sport variant after the CST and CSTL versions were produced early 1954. This bike was a real sportster.
This version was only available in 1954, the tank was standard on this type. The 175 CSS was characterized by the front suspension following Earless design. This was a race developed suspension as proposed by one of its famous race drivers: Leslie Graham. Besides this front suspension, the other bike characteristics were all the same throughout the series CSTL, CS and CSS.
The engine was an up-tuned version of the CSTL basic lay-out, by means of much more pronounced cam form. Cam lift was a considerable 8,25 mm, and inlet and outlet cams were inter- adjustable. While the CS had an engine that provided very good torque, the CSS engine was tuned for top speed. The cylinder head had much greater cooling fin area. Compression ratio was much higher by means of a high piston. Production numbers were probably no more than 450 units, all made in 1954.

Frame number: 406078 Engine number: 470070 S
MV Agusta Historic Register registration: # 0281

Principal characteristics:
Displacement: 172,4 cc
Bore and stroke: 59,5 x 62 mm
Compression ratio: 8.5 : 1
Overhead cam: Chain drive, cam lift 8.25 mm
Power: 14 hp / 8.000 rpm
Ignition: Flywheel magneto
Carburetor: Dell-Orto SSI 25 ( 22.5 in MSDS form)
Transmission: Four gears
Brakes: Front drum 180 mm, rear drum 150 mm
Wheels, tyres: Alloy, 19 inch, front 2.50 inch, rear 2.75 inch
Dry weight: 103 kg
Maximum speed: 135 km / h

I thought the CSS should have a engine number starting with 45 and ending with a SS(lower case).
 

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Here we go................ :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
 

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Well it sure is pretty. When are you getting it?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Just got confirmation from someone who knows the bike and owner and its not a original bike .Although owner was saying it was but could not provide any information to back that up when I asked. So I'm out
 

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Just got confirmation from someone who knows the bike and owner and its not a original bike .Although owner was saying it was but could not provide any information to back that up when I asked. So I'm out
Unfortunately Adrian, that's the way it is with these things - even the experts can't agree on them so unless you'd just like to own a pretty bike (which it very much is) and are happy to pay the asking price then there's other models to look at.

Ah... the Disco minefield. I keep looking & keep getting scared away from them. :)
 

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I thought the CSS should have a engine number starting with 45 and ending with a SS(lower case).
Motor number prefix 45 is not the only correct prefix for SS.
47 prefix is correct with one S.

The example in the photo you provided has enough clues (my opinion FWIW) it's a "replica".

Good luck in your hunt, don't give up!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Motor number prefix 45 is not the only correct prefix for SS.
47 prefix is correct with one S.

The example in the photo you provided has enough clues (my opinion FWIW) it's a "replica".

Good luck in your hunt, don't give up!
The owner said this bike was a transition model . This is his response after i said bike is fake/replica.

There is absolutely nothing fake on or about this machine..
The frame has the 40.. early figures. The engine has the very early 470.. numbers with a single S (Though the engine has the CSS specification with mutually adjustable inlet and outlet camshaft and high piston). In the transitional period from the CSS (only made in 1954, and very beginning 1955) to the simpler CS (made from early 1955) there were transition models made between those two models, with the frame still CSS (1954), and the engine CS (1955).
The reason for this was that the production lines were not parallel. These transitional models are confirmed to me by Enrico Sironi, the museum director of MV (successor of Vincent Rossi, the designer of the 175), and by Gian Pio Ottone, the former trial driver of the factory who rode the 175 dirt bike. (only two ever built).
In addition, the historical MV Agusta registery also recognized it as a CSS model and has confirmed this by registering the bike accordingly as the bike is in accordance with the known data.
All this information I am also using in my book about the MV Agusta 175 series. I fear that what has been assumed is based on not being fully aware of the information as given.

I don't believe this, especially after I asked for documents to back this up he can't provide.
 

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I don't know, that sounds somewhat legitimate, but what do i know. Is there anyway that you could do some research like calling the Agusta Museum to find out if those years and that number combination is in fact in the registry?

That sure is a lot of information for it to be a fake, a lot of information that could be checked out I would think. I would cut-and-paste and forward that on to someone more in the know before I gave it the fake stamp of disapproval.
Usually if you're calling somebody out on a fake and they know it, they don't give such a response. They are usually waiting for the guy that has not done his homework.
 

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Hi all,
First off it's not my intent to pick apart someone's machine, but Adrian asked for help. And it's my opinion anyone offering up a machine for sale must be willing to have others look at it critically.

The owner said this bike was a transition model . This is his response after i said bike is fake/replica.

There is absolutely nothing fake on or about this machine..
The frame has the 40.. early figures. The engine has the very early 470.. numbers with a single S (Though the engine has the CSS specification with mutually adjustable inlet and outlet camshaft and high piston).
Yes the frame numbers are in the ballpark, so I can't say they are wrong but they do not seem 100% right. The frame has no toolboxes. The fork is visibly different from the authentic examples I have seen, and so is the front fender. Just look, these differences are easily spotted. More photos would be good to have.

Yes, the motor is a Sport motor, no fake there. But it is NOT a CSS motor. A CSS is all about getting the right motor case numbers and parts. Parts go bad and get changed around, so having a different cam or carb does not a Super Sport make.

In the transitional period from the CSS (only made in 1954, and very beginning 1955) to the simpler CS (made from early 1955) there were transition models made between those two models, with the frame still CSS (1954), and the engine CS (1955).

I have good reason to believe the CS Sport did NOT come after the CSS. In my opinion the CS Sport was introduced at the same time as the CSS. I even asked Dorian about documenting this timeline but have not heard back yet. And I am doubtful any "transitional models" existed of the CSS. CS Sport pre-production prototypes and mockups existed, and all I can say is this one doesnt match the limited reference I have.

Clone, reproduction, replica, fake, zebra... which word to use depends on if you are the seller or the buyer!

The reason for this was that the production lines were not parallel. These transitional models are confirmed to me by Enrico Sironi, the museum director of MV (successor of Vincent Rossi, the designer of the 175), and by Gian Pio Ottone, the former trial driver of the factory who rode the 175 dirt bike. (only two ever built).

OK. Sironi has been misquoted before, so I am skeptical when someone just drops his name. You were smart to ask to see documentation in writing.

In addition, the historical MV Agusta registery also recognized it as a CSS model and has confirmed this by registering the bike accordingly as the bike is in accordance with the known data.
All this information I am also using in my book about the MV Agusta 175 series. I fear that what has been assumed is based on not being fully aware of the information as given.

I am not questioning this persons credentials, and there's no advantage to me to do so. But he is representing this 175 MV as a CSS model and trying to explain it by calling it a "transitional model". Just because some society "recognized" it does not mean that buyers should go shut their eyes and assume the society knows best. Question authority. It is smart to approach with caution any valuable old rare machine, and especially one like the CS Sport and Super Sport where fakes are more common than real ones.

I don't believe this, especially after I asked for documents to back this up he can't provide.[/QUOTE]
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Is this what it should look like?. Do you have any pictures of original bikes
 

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Hi Adrian,

These photos showed up on the current MV factory web site. They appear to be period publicity shots of a production 1954 MV Agusta 175 CSS.

A true work of art, even in black and white. :love: Which is why they deserve to be preserved, or restored correctly, so they look like they were designed to look.

Ivan
 

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Hi Adrian,

These photos showed up on the current MV factory web site. They appear to be period publicity shots of a production 1954 MV Agusta 175 CSS.

A true work of art, even in black and white. :love: Which is why they deserve to be preserved, or restored correctly, so they look like they were designed to look.

Ivan
I'd buy that one :) :) :)

Thanks for the pic Ivan - stunning.
 

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Here's one reason to think the CS Sport and CSS Super Sport were introduced at the same time. Check out those white letter Pirellis and what looks to my eye like a red battery. I wish more of the CSS version was visible so we could see if it had a 3-screw points cover. The standard-fork Disco Sport on the left looks like it has a 2-hole points cover.

Mick Walker's many books were churned out quickly so may not always bee 100% accurate but are still a wealth of period information. If you see one of these at a book sale grab it.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Here's one reason to think the CS Sport and CSS Super Sport were introduced at the same time. Check out those white letter Pirellis and what looks to my eye like a red battery. I wish more of the CSS version was visible so we could see if it had a 3-screw points cover. The standard-fork Disco Sport on the left looks like it has a 2-hole points cover.

Mick Walker's many books were churned out quickly so may not always bee 100% accurate but are still a wealth of period information. If you see one of these at a book sale grab it.
Thanks Ivan, great photos.
Don't mind a replica, but if the price reflects that. That is the problem,sellers trying to sell replicas at high prices and denying that they are fake.
The hunt continues
 

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Hi all.
Uncharacteristically for this group, Australian mr. Adrian has been suggesting in his post, that the MV 175 CSS I have for sale, is a fake. Nothing has been put forward prudently by him, nor did he show any proof. Moreover, mr. Adrian sees himself as “knowledgeable” to dictate clearly his self-pronounced “expert” vision to other members of the group.
I have now proof that Mr. Adrian did so for no other reasons than to his own advantage. The thought is to give himself room to obtain the desired bike at a discount price, and at the same time to discourage others in the group to have a proper look and maybe interest in that bike. The proof is that Mr. Adrian is now suggesting to my sales agent to buy the desired bike at a reduced price-level.
Anyone knowing the historic surroundings of the nineteen fifties, can agree that the bikes frame number is certainly mid or late 1954, while the engine number is a very early (1954 late fall) CS engine number, starting with 470…S. The real experts from that time have certified that there was a change-over period between these models, such as is the case with my bike. Moreover the top-end of the engine is purely CSS specification ( piston, valves, cams).
There is really nothing wrong with this bike, the tool boxes are missing however.
In my opinion mr. Adrian has shown clearly not to belong the group of MV lovers who normally have access to this group. He is just apparently suggesting mistakes, and trying to obtain the bike at a lower price. Thereafter, once in Australia, he will certainly make his good profits by selling it to the highest possible price, cashing his profits. My agent, who has sold rare bikes to Australia, informed me that more persons act that way in Australia .
I am strongly suggesting to the modus operandi of this group to exclude mr. Adrian and persons acting similarly, from being a member.
 

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To Ivan,

Most of the time I appreciate your knowledge of the 175 series.
However, here you are making a mistake in your opinion.
After numerous visits to the museum and very many other persons from those early times
I am convinced of the details I gave here.
Many details of such information are not on paper, and cannot legally been justified
However, some unknowledgeables of nowadays think they can have it all on paper,
reasoning from the distance
Detail: The CS engine 470...S in this transitional period does have the three screw
ignition chamber cover
gerard
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hi all.
Uncharacteristically for this group, Australian mr. Adrian has been suggesting in his post, that the MV 175 CSS I have for sale, is a fake. Nothing has been put forward prudently by him, nor did he show any proof. Moreover, mr. Adrian sees himself as “knowledgeable” to dictate clearly his self-pronounced “expert” vision to other members of the group.
I have now proof that Mr. Adrian did so for no other reasons than to his own advantage. The thought is to give himself room to obtain the desired bike at a discount price, and at the same time to discourage others in the group to have a proper look and maybe interest in that bike. The proof is that Mr. Adrian is now suggesting to my sales agent to buy the desired bike at a reduced price-level.
Anyone knowing the historic surroundings of the nineteen fifties, can agree that the bikes frame number is certainly mid or late 1954, while the engine number is a very early (1954 late fall) CS engine number, starting with 470…S. The real experts from that time have certified that there was a change-over period between these models, such as is the case with my bike. Moreover the top-end of the engine is purely CSS specification ( piston, valves, cams).
There is really nothing wrong with this bike, the tool boxes are missing however.
In my opinion mr. Adrian has shown clearly not to belong the group of MV lovers who normally have access to this group. He is just apparently suggesting mistakes, and trying to obtain the bike at a lower price. Thereafter, once in Australia, he will certainly make his good profits by selling it to the highest possible price, cashing his profits. My agent, who has sold rare bikes to Australia, informed me that more persons act that way in Australia .
I am strongly suggesting to the modus operandi of this group to exclude mr. Adrian and persons acting similarly, from being a member.
You are wrong,and you do not know me. I asked for you or your seller to provide documentation/ proof of what you said ,bike being a transition model. Which you can not provide, and I'm only stating the obvious. And I have also spoken to another well known member on here who knows you and the bike and has confirmed with me this bike is 100%replica. So don't talk shit if you can not back up anything you have said.
I don't buy bikes to sell for profit but only for personal use.
I am sick of people trying to pass bikes off as the real thing when they simply aren't and asking huge prices. Especially this model of bike...
 

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Hi all.
Uncharacteristically for this group, Australian mr. Adrian has been suggesting in his post, that the MV 175 CSS I have for sale, is a fake. Nothing has been put forward prudently by him, nor did he show any proof. Moreover, mr. Adrian sees himself as “knowledgeable” to dictate clearly his self-pronounced “expert” vision to other members of the group.
I have now proof that Mr. Adrian did so for no other reasons than to his own advantage. The thought is to give himself room to obtain the desired bike at a discount price, and at the same time to discourage others in the group to have a proper look and maybe interest in that bike. The proof is that Mr. Adrian is now suggesting to my sales agent to buy the desired bike at a reduced price-level.
Anyone knowing the historic surroundings of the nineteen fifties, can agree that the bikes frame number is certainly mid or late 1954, while the engine number is a very early (1954 late fall) CS engine number, starting with 470…S. The real experts from that time have certified that there was a change-over period between these models, such as is the case with my bike. Moreover the top-end of the engine is purely CSS specification ( piston, valves, cams).
There is really nothing wrong with this bike, the tool boxes are missing however.
In my opinion mr. Adrian has shown clearly not to belong the group of MV lovers who normally have access to this group. He is just apparently suggesting mistakes, and trying to obtain the bike at a lower price. Thereafter, once in Australia, he will certainly make his good profits by selling it to the highest possible price, cashing his profits. My agent, who has sold rare bikes to Australia, informed me that more persons act that way in Australia .
I am strongly suggesting to the modus operandi of this group to exclude mr. Adrian and persons acting similarly, from being a member.


Mate, im going to say factually that u are complety wrong about Adrian. He is a stand out man and not at all what you described.

I too am Australian and completely take offence to what you have said about Adrian and of course Australians. We or him are not at all like you described. We as a country are known to be very accommodating, welcoming, generous and welcoming, and if u like laid back as many people often say.

For you to say to moderaters here that people like Adrain should exclude Adrian from here you are absolutely being an idiot. He has been a member here for many years and a lot longer than you and has done nothing but contribute and be a positive influence on this site. So to i tell you nothing but from the sincere inner depths of my heart.... please piss off.

Also, For you to say Adrian is not an mv lover, my god you have no idea what you are talking about, nor do u have any idea who is he or what he owns so again piss off and leave us alone.

This site is full of mv affectionados and adrian is one of them, and a true one at that , and a gentleman at that.
 

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Here is a link to an old customized 175 MV Sport I just spotted on the www.

http://databikes.com/infophoto/other/mv_agusta_mv_agusta_175_sport-1955.html

The sellers description is accurate, but brief... and funny when translated in Google: "1955 MV Agusta 175 Sport anus the bike has been transformed into a model with sporty tachometer magnets fork platforms: backward and more. oh, and documents guard plate, is in good condition" :laughing:

I'm sharing this bike as an example of why a modified bike is nothing to be ashamed of! Don't try to give it airs... factory special racing limited homage edition. That's :jerkoff:. Just call it what it is.... a custom!

Even though I like old bikes in their original form, I appreciate modified machines too. Period performance or aesthetic mod's, if they improve on the original, can be really interesting and make a machine unique and special. This one isn't 100% pleasing to my eye yet, but it has tons of potential. It wouldn't take much to look just like a period racer, and if the vintage patina could be retained, even better. Just don't try to pass it off as something it isn't (see photo below of Tommy Robb on a '55-'56 MV 175) . Perfect for an MV enthusiast who rides in Moto Giro events or has an interest in 1950's MV racing history (as I do). If this bike were for sale in the US I'd love to have it!

Ivan

PS- dunno Tommy Robb? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robb
 

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I have not seen any prices listed in this thread yet...

I'll give ya 20 bucks for it and promise not to sell it to any other Aussie for more than the 20 bucks plus freight...

:popcorn:
 
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