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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I've been getting some chatter on the LHS of the engine (timing chain cover) after start up a few times over the last 1000 miles and it usually goes away with some rpm or short distance ride.

Now is seems I get the chatter and it doesn't go away. In addition it seems at lower rpm (2500-4500) when at slow speed in high gear upon acceleration (rolling on the throttle) I get noises I don't like. This especially happens at lower rpm when loading the motor.

My TVL turned over 18,000 miles recently and IMO the cam chain tensioner is failing. I changed the oil on the engine about 800 miles ago and it is still like new (color) after wiping some on a clean paper towel.
5w-40 Castrol 4 s syn power 1

Has anyone done this job and could you give some advice..

  • can you remove the tensioner while in the frame on the TV?
  • how to be certain, once the tensioner is removed, that it is indeed faulty?
  • torque value tightening the replacement?
  • special tool for removal (socket with swiveling extension)?
  • would it be worth removing the lower cover over the timing chain gear/flywheel for analysis (what to look for)?
 

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You should replace it with a manual tensioner. You are going to need to remove your tank and valve cover and set timing at TDC. If you were to take the tensioner off and replace it with a new one without taking the timing covers off...it could jump teeth and you wouldn't know it and it could ruin your engine. I have a write up on doing a valve service and info about the pros and cons of a manual vs hydraulic tensioner.

Search "changing and checking valve clearances."

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
thanks for the reply,,

good info about changing out the hydraulic cam tensioner with a manual tensioner. What did you use as a resource to follow for proper chain tensioning with the manual replacement tensioner?

Just trying to understand the point you mentioned about "it could jump teeth" Would this be on the bottom cam chain sprocket, the exhaust cam sprocket or the intake cam sprocket? How would the chain jump teeth on either cam or the bottom cam sprocket if the chain is still in position on those three cam chain sprockets and the cams and chain cam sprocket do not move (or rotate)?

What torque did you use for securing the manual tensioner to the head prior to adjusting the tension?
 

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The act of putting the engine in TDC unloads the valve springs. So when you remove the tensioner your cams are not pointing down pressing on the springs. This allows you to safely remove the tensioner without the fear of it springing back and jumping a tooth on either cam. (Especially when you can't see in to verify that it's the correct timing)

I tightened it by feel I can't tell you a specific torque value just make sure it's pretty snug... (Good luck trying to fit anything but a box end wrench in their anyway)


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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The act of putting the engine in TDC unloads the valve springs. So when you remove the tensioner your cams are not pointing down pressing on the springs. This allows you to safely remove the tensioner without the fear of it springing back and jumping a tooth on either cam. (Especially when you can't see in to verify that it's the correct timing)
Ok.

I understand that putting cylinder #3 in TDC takes all the cam lobes off all the spring tensioned valves.

Now if you have the cam shaft cover bolted down the cams can not spring up.. correct?


This is what I don't understand.. what is "it"

" This allows you to safely remove the tensioner without the fear of it springing back and jumping a tooth on either cam."

In the service manual it shows that the timing chain can not be removed from either cam shaft sprocket until the cam shaft cover is unbolted/removed and the cam shaft is tilted out of the journal to provide enough timing chain slack (this is with the tensioner removed).

487668


.
 

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I sent you a PM.

I'm referring to the cams.

You are correct the cams would not be able to spring up with the girdle installed but they can still move independently and rotate on their own if not at TDC when the tensioner is removed.

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I've been getting some chatter on the LHS of the engine (timing chain cover) after start up a few times over the last 1000 miles and it usually goes away with some rpm or short distance ride.

Now is seems I get the chatter and it doesn't go away. In addition it seems at lower rpm (2500-4500) when at slow speed in high gear upon acceleration (rolling on the throttle) I get noises I don't like. This especially happens at lower rpm when loading the motor.

My TVL turned over 18,000 miles recently and IMO the cam chain tensioner is failing. I changed the oil on the engine about 800 miles ago and it is still like new (color) after wiping some on a clean paper towel.
5w-40 Castrol 4 s syn power 1

Has anyone done this job and could you give some advice..

  • can you remove the tensioner while in the frame on the TV?
  • how to be certain, once the tensioner is removed, that it is indeed faulty?
  • torque value tightening the replacement?
  • special tool for removal (socket with swiveling extension)?
  • would it be worth removing the lower cover over the timing chain gear/flywheel for analysis (what to look for)?
The following story relates to some work I performed on my personal engine and is not intended to be the definative description of this procedure.
Please be aware that your results may vary.

Errrrr,

I had an 800RR and replaced the hydraulic CCT with a mechanically adjustable one.
Did not remove the tank.
Did not remove the Cam cover.

You can ascertain TDC by removing the the alternator cover. This gives access to the cam chain at it's lower sprocket and also allows some checking of the chain slack.


IMG_20190423_182924.jpg


Rotate crank to align register marks ( arrow and slot).

IMG_20190423_182930.jpg



Remove seat lock mounting bolts (may apply to TVL or not) and move lock rearward for tool clearance.

IMG_20190423_181211.jpg



I used a 1-1/16 socket and ground the bevel off to fit the tight space. The shortened socket left scratches on the new part.
It is a short swing and requires some fiddling.

IMG_20190423_181523.jpg


IMG_20190423_183356.jpg


Hyd. out and Mech. in.

IMG_20190423_183521.jpg


IMG_20190423_184000.jpg



IMG_20190423_190553.jpg


Tighten CCT into head, adjust CCT and thus chain per manual (some slack, not too much.......;)).

I have not seen them but the manuals for the later 3Cyls must have a CCT adjust sched. and procedure as those engines have OEM Mechanical parts.

Good Luck
 

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You have allot more room in the frame for tools! Jelous!

Russian roulette. You don't know what TDC your on. Maybe you are opposite of TDC and your marks are lining up. Hard to tell if you can't see what valves are open. The marks line up twice but which one is TDC#3?? He has enough milage to inspect the valves again anyway.

I'm not the final authority by any means but that seems risky to me. Glad it worked out for you. I would not risk it.

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
I have not seen them but the manuals for the later 3 cyl must have a CCT adjust sched. and procedure as those engines have OEM Mechanical parts.

Good Luck
Thanks for the reply.. I spent some time today searching for the most recent 3 cyl shop manual for those new (MY17-21 TVL) motos with the manual CCT to check on procedural process but was not able to locate one.

Also some more testing.. start the TVL up this morning cold and it is quiet as can be. Let it run until the temp kicked the fan on with some slight throttle applications in neutral (3 - 5K rpm). Sounded perfectly normal and wondered why I would even want to change out the CCT.

Turned it off and 5 minutes later, start the engine and it rattling away... seems the hot oil and high operating temps may be a contributor?? Wondering about the ultra light weight 5w-40 in 90+ degree temps.. too thin of oil?

What size socket did you use to remove the OEM manual CCT?

I spoke to the main mechanic at the dealership and he also mentioned that he could replace the CCT without removing the valve cover and that just feel with the cam chain slack by moving the crank with a ratchet would work...

Did you determine what was wrong with the hydraulic CCT that you removed?
 

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Thanks for the reply.. I spent some time today searching for the most recent 3 cyl shop manual for those new (MY17-21 TVL) motos with the manual CCT to check on procedural process but was not able to locate one.

Also some more testing.. start the TVL up this morning cold and it is quiet as can be. Let it run until the temp kicked the fan on with some slight throttle applications in neutral (3 - 5K rpm). Sounded perfectly normal and wondered why I would even want to change out the CCT.

Turned it off and 5 minutes later, start the engine and it rattling away... seems the hot oil and high operating temps may be a contributor?? Wondering about the ultra light weight 5w-40 in 90+ degree temps.. too thin of oil?

What size socket did you use to remove the OEM manual CCT?

I spoke to the main mechanic at the dealership and he also mentioned that he could replace the CCT without removing the valve cover and that just feel with the cam chain slack by moving the crank with a ratchet would work...

Did you determine what was wrong with the hydraulic CCT that you removed?
I replaced my HYD preemptively. It was easily worth the effort for the piece of mind. Its' removal requires a 27mm or 1-1/16 socket.

The issue with the HYD CCT is that some have inconsistent operation. This may have caused several engine failures as the cam chain slops around.
Can't prove that but ask MV how many HYD CCT engines they have replaced or warranted with valve strikes.
MV has as well reverted to a MECH CCT in their later triples.
I have a friend who has had 2 engine failures requiring replacement and the idea of a variable-valve-timing CCT (hot oil, older life-cycle oil, age weakened plunger spring ?) causing them is not so radical.
In the sixties and seventies Honda replaced their HYD CCTs with MECH adjustable ones (250, 350 twins).

In reference to the TDC issue I followed the manual to set it. The cams did not rotate and the chain remained slack as one would expect.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
In reference to the TDC issue I followed the manual to set it. The cams did not rotate and the chain remained slack as one would expect.
for clarity on TDC.. you did this without removing the valve cover and just using the lower timing chain gear and associated marks?

Did you pull the plugs to facility easy engine rotation from the crank?
 

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for clarity on TDC.. you did this without removing the valve cover and just using the lower timing chain gear and associated marks?

Did you pull the plugs to facility easy engine rotation from the crank?
Did not remove valve cover or tank.
No need to remove all plugs to rotate the crank.
I should state here that dropping the engine and working on a bench gives best access but is wholly unnecessary and a leaping pile of extra work.

Upon further consideration I must advise you of an inconsistency in the manual.
There are two consecutive pictures of the phonic wheel upon which the timing marks are stamped and these appear to show either two different phonic wheels or two different timing marks NOT 180 degrees apart.

phonic wheel 1.png


phonic wheel 2.png


Note the gap in the wheel is not in the same place relative to the timing mark.
I don't know if this is photoshop (note the focus) or a part number change.
I went with the arrow mark on the wheel and found slack in the chain and thus no movement of the crank when removing the CCT.

The engine manual covers finding TDC on the lower cam chain gear (page 70) and it is stated as above with the proviso however that if you want to reassure yourself about # 3cyl being at TDC you could remove that plug and use the screwdriver trick.
(Rotate the crank clockwise gently from alternator end and watch the handle rise then stop as the marks line up.)
The crank rotates easily with a bar or ratchet and 19mm socket.
 

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What he's saying is TDC compression vs. TDC exhaust stroke. Of course the piston will be at the top of the cylinder with the crank lined up, every time, but It needs to be on the compression stroke to have the valves closed at the top (cams lined up).
The cranks rotates 2 times for every one cam rotation. 4-stroke.
 

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What he's saying is TDC compression vs. TDC exhaust stroke. Of course the piston will be at the top of the cylinder with the crank lined up, every time, but It needs to be on the compression stroke to have the valves closed at the top (cams lined up).
The cranks rotates 2 times for every one cam rotation. 4-stroke.

As noted in the Engine Manual page 70.
And page 49.
 

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Yes, of course it is. Because it's important.

The discussion of 'putting a straw in the cylinder' will tell you the piston is at TDC. But it can't tell you compression or exhaust stroke... hence my clarification, to what the manual says. Because it's important.
 
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