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Executive Summary / Life cycle of this thread:
1) Thread created to centralize discussion of GP&R in 2013
2) Forum members generally civil until 2016 election nears
3) Certain Forum members use site prior to election to post personal political philosophies to impress others and/or try to convince others they are right
4) Forum members fail in item #3
5) 2016 US election result surprising and upsetting to many, triggering TDS, thus exacerbating the activity of item #3, leading to item #4
6) New forum members join forum and find GP&R thread
7) Certain new forum members display predictable and unimpressive low-level troll characteristics, but fail in item #3, leading to item #4
8) Certain new forum members settle to ad hominem* attacks of item #3, leading to item #4
9) As 2020 election approaches, rinse and repeat items #3-8

*Paul Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement lists ad hominem as the second lowest type of argument in a disagreement.

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
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One of the more notable things about the individuals on this thread who seem to espouse conservative views is that they never apply the rules or maxims that they like to quote to their own conduct. Unable to support a decent argument, simply beause their positions lack substance, resentful of undertanding & amateur enough to offer opinions about politics when they do not even know the basic principles of how government works, off they drift into obtuse tangents, shielded by their hiprocisy and ignorance. Dullards.
 

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A man here has just been arrested out side a Mosque yelling obscenities, and guess what, he was wearing a TRUMP tee shirt. Yes it read TRUMP for New Zealand. This bigot of a leader the US has, well his racist anti muslim words have far reaching consequences amongst his white supremacist supporters around the world. Thank goodness, one more reading in parliament and the new gun laws will take effect. Hopefully never again will a white supremacist see NZ as an easy target to get weapons they drool over and commit mass murder. (more than 300 voluntary guns handed in so far) Freedom not fear.
There is only way to describe the cold-blooded massacre of 49 Muslims in New Zealand. It is evil. Fiendishly evil. No condemnation of this heinous, cowardly act can be too strong.

These were Muslim worshipers who were mowed down while performing their Friday prayers in their mosques.

They were not military combatants.

They were not terrorists.

But they were Muslims.

They were foreigners.

Therefore, reasoned their killer, they must be eliminated.

And from what we understand, the shooter was a right-wing extremist, a white supremacist.

But this is where we must not overreact.

This was not the crime of all white people.

This was not the crime of conservatives in general.

This was not the crime of Donald Trump or his supporters.

This was the crime of a sick, demented, evil individual, a man who apparently felt solidarity with others of like mind.

But he is not part of a worldwide, organized, anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant conspiracy.

Put another way, if a conservative America thinks we need better border security, that does not make him a partner in this heinous act.

Or if a conservative Swede thinks that Muslims need to become more incorporated into the larger society, that does not mean he wishes for their death, or, God forbid, would try to kill them.

My point is that our response must be reasonable.

We unequivocally condemn this evil act. And we unequivocally condemn the ideology behind it.

There is no possible justification or rationale or excuse that can support this despicable massacre. End of subject.

But let’s not use the blood of these Muslims to score political points. That is, quite frankly, obscene.

In fact, we could honestly ask whether there is real concern for the Muslim victims, including the wounded and the families of the slain, or whether there is a desire to make this about politics.

To explain, according to one website, from February 13 to March 15 of this year, there have been roughly 150 terrorist attacks carried out by Muslims worldwide, many of them against fellow Muslims. An example would be the attack by Sunni Muslims on a political gathering of Shiite Muslims in Kabul, Afghanistan, killing 11 and wounding 90.

Why no outcry over this? Or did we even hear about it in the West?

Without a doubt, it is bigger news for a mass slaughter to take place in two mosques in otherwise peaceful New Zealand. As has been widely reported, more people were killed in this massacre than are murdered in an entire year in New Zealand.

And the fact that the killer livestreamed the shooting gave it instant exposure and greater shock value.

But this is a brutal, tragic, horrific act, not a political football. Let us not use the blood of the slain to grease our personal agenda.

And let’s also remember that, worldwide, Christians, not Muslims, are the most persecuted religious group.

Just within the last few weeks in Nigeria, 32 Christians were killed in Maro and 46 Christians were killed in Anguwan Gamu, both times by Muslim terrorists. And in Shuwa, Nigeria, a girl [was] injured when two suicide bombers detonate[d] prematurely during an attempt to kill church-goers.”

And using very conservative figures, which do not include casualties in the midst of war, Open Doors estimates that 11 Christians are killed every day for their faith.

As for worldwide terror attacks, a 2016 study indicated that “450 of 452 suicide attacks in 2015 were by Muslim extremists.”

My point, again, is simple.

The horrific slaughter of these Muslims in Christchurch, New Zealand is despicable in every way, leaving in its trail an almost unimaginable amount of suffering and trauma.

That’s what should get our attention.

This is not about Islam in general. Or about immigration, per se. Or about conservative values. Or about Trump.

It is about the evil of a fanatical ideology.

It is about the murderous hatred of a racist, white supremacist.

That is more than enough.
 

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so I better not mention Trumpet anymore >:)
Gidday. A favour? I think of trumpet as being either a slang word for a Triumph, another being trumpy, or a somethimes pleasant musical instrument. The tangerine narcissist is neither of those.
 

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They, Presidents, are all temporary with a max of 2 terms. Its the damage inflicted thats lasting. You only have to look back at Bush junior to see his legacy. Nixon another crooked one, but less overall damage.

It is much, much worse than that.


According to Noam Chomsky, every US president from Eisenhower to GW bush, every one of them, including the liberal darling JFK, is guilty of war crimes, I think he said under the standards of Nuremburg, which would be the geneva convention. This was pre- Obama, but he would definitely be a qualifier as well, and almost certainly Tawump, but ironically not yet as bad as anyone else.


The worse were of course Nixon, Reagan and bush jnr.


If the laws could be applied, and retrospectively, then most British PMs and an Australian PM or two would probably be guilty as well. That is how many of thw western democracies work. War & murder.
 

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MacRoy. No. Just no. You have no real data. Just no. Go now ... You have shown nothing. Offered nothing. Go. Just go. No, don't even think about it. Save yourself. Stop belittleing yourself. Go.
It is called context, Kevin. Struggle on. Read your own posts and apply them to yourselves. You have shown nothing. Offered nothing. Go. Just go. No, don't even think about it. Save yourself. Stop belittleing yourself. Go.


What is the diffrenence bewteen a democracy and a republic? Not one of the 'conservatives' who grace this thread knew. Dumb and dumber.
 

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This is probably as close to being correct as you ever have been. In fact the opposite is true, the corruption and incompotence of the repeilcans makes any alternative with a solution more realistic.
Her “realistic alternative” got voted down 57-0.

Speaking of corrupt, see Andrew’s post on previous page.
 

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It is called context, Kevin. Struggle on. Read your own posts and apply them to yourselves. You have shown nothing. Offered nothing. Go. Just go. No, don't even think about it. Save yourself. Stop belittleing yourself. Go.


What is the diffrenence bewteen a democracy and a republic? Not one of the 'conservatives' who grace this thread knew. Dumb and dumber.
You have no argument and no facts to back up your opinions. Just name calling and insults as usual. Pathetic.
 

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Her “realistic alternative” got voted down 57-0.

Speaking of corrupt, see Andrew’s post on previous page.
Yes, but I understand the context, there is a magical and strange word for you lot, on how and why. Politics. The money for wall also got voted down. Does it end there? Tick tick.
 

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You have no argument and no facts to back up your opinions. Just name calling and insults as usual. Pathetic.
Are you suggesting that memory loss is why you know nyet about how government works, or that my pointing that fact out to you is insulting, beause it reminds you that you know fuck all about the subjects you presume to offer opinions on?
 

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Ad hominem
If you wish to see ad hominem, refer to aircondys posts. Or Nesca. Or spolitbratmike. But then, in your world of truth not being truth. Are you a moderator? You are certainly balanced and impartial enough. The diffrence between a democracy and a republic, kevin? Look it up. Might be useful to give you perspective and context in a thread about politics.
 

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Roy is going to force me to post more "don't f..k the sheep" signs

I even have one that is in song form.
 

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If you wish to see ad hominem, refer to aircondys posts. Or Nesca. Or spolitbratmike. But then, in your world of truth not being truth. Are you a moderator? You are certainly balanced and impartial enough. The diffrence between a democracy and a republic, kevin? Look it up. Might be useful to give you perspective and context in a thread about politics.
:jerkoff:
 

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More reading enjoyment.

What the Qur’an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur’an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali’s translation of the Qur’an.

The Qur’an tells us: “not to make friendship with Jews and Christians” (5:51), “kill the disbelievers wherever we find them” (2:191), “murder them and treat them harshly” (9:123), “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem”

(9:5). The Qur’an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises “If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them” (8:65).

Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews “until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (9:29).

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to “fight the unbelievers” and “He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them” (9:14).

The Qur’an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193).

It says that the “non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water” (14:17). It asks the Muslims to “slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter” (5:34).

And tells us that “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods” (22:19-22) and that they not only will have “disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire)” (22:9).

The Qur’an says that “those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy” (25:68).

For those who “believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!” (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be “harsh with unbelievers”, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a “stern command”: “Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin.” (69:30-37)

The Qur’an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour” (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9).

The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that “it is good for us even if we dislike it” (2:216). Then he advises us to “strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; and after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” (47:4). Our God has promised to “instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers” and has ordered us to “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them” (8:12).

He also assures us that when we kill in his name “it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself” (8:17). He orders us “to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies” (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that “Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place” (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell – an evil refuge indeed” (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will “wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones” (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20).

There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises “boys like hidden pearls” (56:24) and “youth never altering in age like scattered pearls” (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find “goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni” (56:67-71).

In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39).

As for women, the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to “take a green branch and beat your wife”, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228).

It not only denies the women’s equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness.

Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many ‘captive’ women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.
 

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One of the more notable things about the individuals on this thread who seem to espouse conservative views is that they never apply the rules or maxims that they like to quote to their own conduct. Unable to support a decent argument, simply beause their positions lack substance, resentful of undertanding & amateur enough to offer opinions about politics when they do not even know the basic principles of how government works, off they drift into obtuse tangents, shielded by their hiprocisy and ignorance. Dullards.
Typical MacRoy post. No substance, no facts. Just name-calling, insulting those he disagrees with.

Ad Hominen.
 

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There is only way to describe the cold-blooded massacre of 49 Muslims in New Zealand. It is evil. Fiendishly evil. No condemnation of this heinous, cowardly act can be too strong.

These were Muslim worshipers who were mowed down while performing their Friday prayers in their mosques.

They were not military combatants.

They were not terrorists.

But they were Muslims.

They were foreigners.

Therefore, reasoned their killer, they must be eliminated.

And from what we understand, the shooter was a right-wing extremist, a white supremacist.

But this is where we must not overreact.

This was not the crime of all white people.

This was not the crime of conservatives in general.

This was not the crime of Donald Trump or his supporters.

This was the crime of a sick, demented, evil individual, a man who apparently felt solidarity with others of like mind.

But he is not part of a worldwide, organized, anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant conspiracy.

Put another way, if a conservative America thinks we need better border security, that does not make him a partner in this heinous act.

Or if a conservative Swede thinks that Muslims need to become more incorporated into the larger society, that does not mean he wishes for their death, or, God forbid, would try to kill them.

My point is that our response must be reasonable.

We unequivocally condemn this evil act. And we unequivocally condemn the ideology behind it.

There is no possible justification or rationale or excuse that can support this despicable massacre. End of subject.

But let’s not use the blood of these Muslims to score political points. That is, quite frankly, obscene.

In fact, we could honestly ask whether there is real concern for the Muslim victims, including the wounded and the families of the slain, or whether there is a desire to make this about politics.

To explain, according to one website, from February 13 to March 15 of this year, there have been roughly 150 terrorist attacks carried out by Muslims worldwide, many of them against fellow Muslims. An example would be the attack by Sunni Muslims on a political gathering of Shiite Muslims in Kabul, Afghanistan, killing 11 and wounding 90.

Why no outcry over this? Or did we even hear about it in the West?

Without a doubt, it is bigger news for a mass slaughter to take place in two mosques in otherwise peaceful New Zealand. As has been widely reported, more people were killed in this massacre than are murdered in an entire year in New Zealand.

And the fact that the killer livestreamed the shooting gave it instant exposure and greater shock value.

But this is a brutal, tragic, horrific act, not a political football. Let us not use the blood of the slain to grease our personal agenda.

And let’s also remember that, worldwide, Christians, not Muslims, are the most persecuted religious group.

Just within the last few weeks in Nigeria, 32 Christians were killed in Maro and 46 Christians were killed in Anguwan Gamu, both times by Muslim terrorists. And in Shuwa, Nigeria, a girl [was] injured when two suicide bombers detonate[d] prematurely during an attempt to kill church-goers.”

And using very conservative figures, which do not include casualties in the midst of war, Open Doors estimates that 11 Christians are killed every day for their faith.

As for worldwide terror attacks, a 2016 study indicated that “450 of 452 suicide attacks in 2015 were by Muslim extremists.”

My point, again, is simple.

The horrific slaughter of these Muslims in Christchurch, New Zealand is despicable in every way, leaving in its trail an almost unimaginable amount of suffering and trauma.

That’s what should get our attention.

This is not about Islam in general. Or about immigration, per se. Or about conservative values. Or about Trump.

It is about the evil of a fanatical ideology.

It is about the murderous hatred of a racist, white supremacist.

That is more than enough.
Good post Andy, i agree pretty much with what you have written. But unfortunately Trump didn't denounce this White Supremacist Act, he basically called it a one off nutcase. But the roots of this guy go much deeper, and he's part of a larger movement based on hate and racism, and are prepared to kill. It isn't any fault of Trumps, but he won't condemn those groups responsible. And for some reason these supremacists look up to him as a true anti Muslim hating leader. There are good Christians as there are good Muslims, the Christian community in NZ have reached out to the Muslim community to give their support and their faith. Why can't the rest of the world do the same. Trumps also pushing of the US embassy to the Jerusalem capital also stirs up a hornets nest.
 

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Ad hominem
Typical MacRoy post. No substance, no facts. Just name-calling, insulting those he disagrees with.

Ad Hominen.
So you have learnt a new word, but not what it means, or how to apply it. While you are in your dictionary, look up democracy and republic. Then maube one of you will have enough credibitlity to enagge in an adult discussion, which thus far, you have not.


Feel free to start a subject discussion, or find an example of one of your ad hominems, but you are not able to do either, or you would have by now. Hypocrites. Phonies.
 
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