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Grabby, unpredictable, clutch engagement.

13K views 50 replies 17 participants last post by  wallycycle 
#1 ·
Thank you MVAgusta.net, you guys helped me find (and fix) a scary problem with my new-to-me 2017 B3 800! I don't know enough to know what other models share this clutch assembly, but a dash of common sense saves the day.
When leaving a light a little faster than normal, my clutch would grab hard and unpredictably so bad the front wheel would come up! Dang that got my attention quick!
I found this thread on it:
with someone hinting they knew the fix but unwilling to post it? Ugh.
and this thread:
and this one with a great pic!
485440

that got me a little closer to whats going on.
Sure enough the service manual shows the sharp outer edge of the anti-judder spring facing the clutch steel instead of the ring on the engine side it's supposed to seat against. Negating the wear on the clutch steel from it being installed backwards like the manual shows.

Thankfully, clutch removal on a B3 is an easy 10 min job at most:
On the side stand, so you don't have to drain any oil.
Remove 3 torx bolts from the slider and pull it off.
remove the torx bolts from the cover (don't forget theres one hiding deep in the back!) and pull it off straight. Theres alignment pins back there.
remove the 6 clutch springs and pull the clutch pack out. A magnet or 2 dental picks make this easy.

I found my clutch plates and steels to be in absolutely MINT condition, which leads me to believe it was just replaced and a dutiful tech either 'replaced in the order of removal' or 'followed the manual precisely' which I certainly wouldn't blame them for doing either. But tracing an issue opens your mind to really looking at every piece.

Well, the punchline is that I flipped the spring around so the sharp edge is facing its seating ring and immediately solved the problem. WIN!

Disclaimer: If you are a "Factory can't ever make a mistake" or "LIABILITY!" type of person, this fix may not be for you. But it is a "fix" and not a "mod".

Took a rip to the top of my favorite one-way road that drops all the way to the Pacific Ocean and had such a great time I did it three times:geek::ROFLMAO::giggle:

Now all I have to do is spend 4 hours cleaning brake dust off the wheels, Arrgh! Who treats a beauty this way?
 
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#6 ·
I haven't been there with it yet, but I'll swing by on a random saturday if the Mongols haven't taken it over. If I'm not in Angeles forest, I don't mind rockin' the 'Bu! Haha
Latigo, Piuma, Stunt, Dry Cyn, Old Topanga, all the hits:)
If you see it, I'm the tall dorky guy. Come over and say Hi!
 
#7 ·
Thank you MVAgusta.net, you guys helped me find (and fix) a scary problem with my new-to-me 2017 B3 800! I don't know enough to know what other models share this clutch assembly, but a dash of common sense saves the day.
When leaving a light a little faster than normal, my clutch would grab hard and unpredictably so bad the front wheel would come up! Dang that got my attention quick!
I found this thread on it:
with someone hinting they knew the fix but unwilling to post it? Ugh.
and this thread:
and this one with a great pic!
View attachment 485440
that got me a little closer to whats going on.
Sure enough the service manual shows the sharp outer edge of the anti-judder spring facing the clutch steel instead of the ring on the engine side it's supposed to seat against. Negating the wear on the clutch steel from it being installed backwards like the manual shows.

Thankfully, clutch removal on a B3 is an easy 10 min job at most:
On the side stand, so you don't have to drain any oil.
Remove 3 torx bolts from the slider and pull it off.
remove the torx bolts from the cover (don't forget theres one hiding deep in the back!) and pull it off straight. Theres alignment pins back there.
remove the 6 clutch springs and pull the clutch pack out. A magnet or 2 dental picks make this easy.

I found my clutch plates and steels to be in absolutely MINT condition, which leads me to believe it was just replaced and a dutiful tech either 'replaced in the order of removal' or 'followed the manual precisely' which I certainly wouldn't blame them for doing either. But tracing an issue opens your mind to really looking at every piece.

Well, the punchline is that I flipped the spring around so the sharp edge is facing its seating ring and immediately solved the problem. WIN!

Disclaimer: If you are a "Factory can't ever make a mistake" or "LIABILITY!" type of person, this fix may not be for you. But it is a "fix" and not a "mod".

Took a rip to the top of my favorite one-way road that drops all the way to the Pacific Ocean and had such a great time I did it three times:geek::ROFLMAO::giggle:

Now all I have to do is spend 4 hours cleaning brake dust off the wheels, Arrgh! Who treats a beauty this way?
Hi mate so if I understand this post correctly your clutch was assembled incorrectly from factory and the drawing in the manual is incorrect ? I have the same random erratic clutch issues on my 2019 800 RR on attempts at quick launches from stopped. My bike due for 12k service soon was thinking I’ll get dealership to strip and check clutch assembly on this advice any other updates members would like to share. I was assuming it was a traction control issue cheers Rohan
 
#8 ·
I got the bike used so I don't know if anyone had been in there previously. I linked the thread I found the pic on and left instructions. It shouldn't be any issue to flip it around and see ether way. Took less than 10 mins, no fluids.

I have put on about 3000 miles since then and still have perfect clutch engagement at hard launches.
 
#9 ·
Evening all!
I can now confirm that what Cooter! has done is the right way to go. I've had this bike just over a year and hated it, "kangaroo" clutch and snatchy drive, with TCS moaning away every chance it got, in fact I was just about to px it for another (rideable) Yamaha! I trawled this forum, 3 cyl and 4cyl, trying to find an answer, (if you have a "kangaroo" clutch, you probably have too!), then came across Cooter!'s answer here. Stripped the clutch to find the sharp edge of the anti judder spring had gouged a big, sharp edged groove in the clutch steel driven plate, (3), so, flipped the convex "spring" (5) around so the larger diameter FACED inward, toward the large washer (6), then dressed driven plate (3) and reassembled the clutch, moving the gouged plate to the outer end of the basket, and put an unmarked driven plate in it's place! The results are astounding! A clutch like it should be, no more "kangarooing", the ride is different too, no more grabby, jerky accelerate aways from low revs, just a different bike altogether. Long may it continue!! Cheers, Cooter!

All the best,
Chubnuts.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Glad you found that! This is a semi common thing that happens. You can literally swap any drive plate with the grooved one and keep riding for another 10-20k miles. I did this on mine in addition to adding 2mm washers under the spring retainers to prevent slipping and give it more torque holding capacity. Just make sure you put the anti judder spring back in the correct orientation that you took it out...unless it's in the wrong orientation to begin with!

Sent from my Armor 9 using Tapatalk
 
#12 ·
I've experienced this a couple of times when trying to pull away fast. I clearly don't pull away "fast" very often as only happened about 5 or 6 times, but boy does it make you look like a dick when it does.
So gonna get them to have a look when it goes in for service in couple of weeks and see if mine is stacked wrong too.
Only 6k miles but it has clear clutch cover which I didn't install myself so guessing it could have been apart and put back together wrong?? We shall see.
 
#15 ·
Thanks @Cooter! ,The shop tried to fix it and while under warranty and changed the clutch under warranty (took quite a few weeks of no bikes....) and a few weeks later the problem started again. I guess they are only following the manufacturer instructions... Anyway, I had to wait for the bike to be out of warranty to jump on the issue myself. I have reversed the ring as you mentioned in your post and the problem has now gone. I have only tried launching a couple of time but will provide an update at the end of the week. I use my bike as a commuter (when sunny...) so should know pretty quickly whether the problem is permanently gone.
Cheers (y)

Why do you think the problem manifests? Is is present form the onset, or does it develop?
 
#14 ·
Thanks @Cooter! ,The shop tried to fix it and while under warranty and changed the clutch under warranty (took quite a few weeks of no bikes....) and a few weeks later the problem started again. I guess they are only following the manufacturer instructions... Anyway, I had to wait for the bike to be out of warranty to jump on the issue myself. I have reversed the ring as you mentioned in your post and the problem has now gone. I have only tried launching a couple of time but will provide an update at the end of the week. I use my bike as a commuter (when sunny...) so should know pretty quickly whether the problem is permanently gone.
Cheers (y)
 
#16 ·
Strange this thread woke back up again today. Bike has just had its service this morning and I asked him to look at it.
He said it was as per MV manual, but did take the bike out and try a quick high revs pull-away from standstill and saw what I was talking about.
He was reluctant to change it from what MV manual stated which I can kinda understand as an MV authorised service place.

He did suggest turning the traction control down a bit though in case it was that. That sent me a bit red as I didn't really think of that - never had tc on a bike before, lvl 4 doesn't seem to have interfered with my riding so always left it as that and didn't give a second thought. Quite angry I didn't think of that myself.
Gonna turn it down and see if it does make a difference (I don't blast away from standstill often so it's not a massive annoyance). I assume you lot not as dumb as me and already done that (or weren't riding with it cranked up so high I the first place 😊)???
 
#19 ·
Morning Rich8,
Imho the traction control doesn't make one iota of difference, adjusting it will lull you in to a false sense of security and then it will kangaroo you down the road when you least expect it, usually in the middle of town on a Saturday afternoon, when everyone's watching! If you do what Cooter! and I have, it totally transforms not only the starts, but the smoothness of the clutch as a whole. I've gone from not wanting to ride it and wanting to get shut of it, to loving the bike! Try it!
Cheers, Chubnuts.
 
#20 ·
No, I think I agree with you, I turned it down to 2 and still behaves the same.
But I can't stand and argue too hard with people who clearly know so much more than me on the subject. I know from my own job that punters questioning professionals' opinion based on something they've read on the Web is one of the most irritating things there is. I want to keep taking my bike there. 🙂

Will turn it off completely next time I go out and (cautiously) see if it makes any difference, but I'm not expecting it to.

So, you're saying it's just prolonging the life? It'll just start wearing another plate and need sorting at some point just not so soon? Or are you saying it's a permanent solution and stops that type of wear completely?
 
#22 ·
No, I think I agree with you, I turned it down to 2 and still behaves the same.
But I can't stand and argue too hard with people who clearly know so much more than me on the subject. I know from my own job that punters questioning professionals' opinion based on something they've read on the Web is one of the most irritating things there is. I want to keep taking my bike there. 🙂

Will turn it off completely next time I go out and (cautiously) see if it makes any difference, but I'm not expecting it to.

So, you're saying it's just prolonging the life? It'll just start wearing another plate and need sorting at some point just not so soon? Or are you saying it's a permanent solution and stops that type of wear completely?
By its very nature, the anti judder concave shaped spring will have had some form of heat treatment, the clutch plates won't have. The edge of the concave spring is as sharp as any knife edge and through the small movements in use will eat into the softer clutch plates. It's almost as if it needs a small hardened disc to run against, instead of the clutch plates themselves, hence.......!
 
#21 ·
Everything wears.
You have a lot of steels in the clutch pack and can use both sides of each one. You'll need whole new complete clutches many times before you run out of steels to use.

A permanent solution is to remove the judder spring and seat (narrow steel behind it) and replace that narrow friction they are inside with a full width friction, (the same as all the others).

All the judder spring does is slow a super fast clutch application very slightly so if you're already smooth on the clutch, you won't even notice. Add the amazing MV shift control and you'll notice even less, add SCS and it's a non-issue. I don't think an SCS clutch would have it but I don't know. An exploded view would answer that question. SilentManual703?;)
 
#25 ·
Thanks for that info @Decobar65 . What bikes has this affected? @Cooter! has a B3. Others? It leaves me wondering if there is an assembly problem from the factory at the outset.
 
#26 ·
The "Judder Spring" is common in a lot of motorcycles. Suzuki GSXR bikes have had this for decades. They don't wear a groove into the plate. My 2008 910R has a judder spring.....So why do these particular MVs have this wear problem? Sounds like an assembly error.....or maybe a batch of judder springs with a sharper edge than design spec??
 
#27 ·
This bucking, rabbit hop on launch from a stand still was showing way back in 2017 or so, around the time of the clutch basket recall. But no one could come up with a diagnosis, maybe the slipper clutch, T/C, poor riding skills. So I'll had my bike to the recipient of this poor design and also to have done the repair myself , and problem solved , for now.
 
#29 ·
I've had my Brutale since new (2016) ,I only experienced this problem about 18 months ago.Gave me a pretty good fright.
I tried turning over the cupped ring, and it made no difference.
I removed both rings completely, made no difference.
Changed the oil I was using, swapped out the whole clutch pack, Made no difference.

My thinking is, if I can remove the rings and it makes no difference to the clutch operation (noise, feel or otherwise)
Then the rings have nothing to do with this problem.

My next thought is that the clutch springs have become slack, so I'll put some packing behind them and see what that does.
 
#30 ·
Thank you MVAgusta.net, you guys helped me find (and fix) a scary problem with my new-to-me 2017 B3 800! I don't know enough to know what other models share this clutch assembly, but a dash of common sense saves the day.
When leaving a light a little faster than normal, my clutch would grab hard and unpredictably so bad the front wheel would come up! Dang that got my attention quick!
I found this thread on it:
with someone hinting they knew the fix but unwilling to post it? Ugh.
and this thread:
and this one with a great pic!
View attachment 485440
that got me a little closer to whats going on.
Sure enough the service manual shows the sharp outer edge of the anti-judder spring facing the clutch steel instead of the ring on the engine side it's supposed to seat against. Negating the wear on the clutch steel from it being installed backwards like the manual shows.

Thankfully, clutch removal on a B3 is an easy 10 min job at most:
On the side stand, so you don't have to drain any oil.
Remove 3 torx bolts from the slider and pull it off.
remove the torx bolts from the cover (don't forget theres one hiding deep in the back!) and pull it off straight. Theres alignment pins back there.
remove the 6 clutch springs and pull the clutch pack out. A magnet or 2 dental picks make this easy.

I found my clutch plates and steels to be in absolutely MINT condition, which leads me to believe it was just replaced and a dutiful tech either 'replaced in the order of removal' or 'followed the manual precisely' which I certainly wouldn't blame them for doing either. But tracing an issue opens your mind to really looking at every piece.

Well, the punchline is that I flipped the spring around so the sharp edge is facing its seating ring and immediately solved the problem. WIN!

Disclaimer: If you are a "Factory can't ever make a mistake" or "LIABILITY!" type of person, this fix may not be for you. But it is a "fix" and not a "mod".

Took a rip to the top of my favorite one-way road that drops all the way to the Pacific Ocean and had such a great time I did it three times:geek::ROFLMAO::giggle:

Now all I have to do is spend 4 hours cleaning brake dust off the wheels, Arrgh! Who treats a beauty this way?
Thank you! My 2017 Brutale was like this also. Last night I flipped the spring around and today it is a new machine.
No more embarrassing green lights after splitting traffic to be at the front.
 
#31 ·
Welcome to the family @ZackAttack .... now please introduce yourself with a post in the New member section.
Tell us where in OZ you reside.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Of the people that have flipped the spring and changed the plate around so there is an undamaged plate against the smooth side of the spring, had the issue ever come back?
 
#36 ·
Just got done flipping the spring so the cutting edge is facing the washer and I changed the location of the grooved metal plate putting a non grooved plate against the rounded side of the spring and put the bike back together. Jesus Christ! It’s a whole new bike! I can properly launch the bike from a stop without doing the clutch hop dance. Thanks everyone!
 
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#38 ·
Just imagine you have a dry clutch ...... like a Ducati or any number of GP race bikes.
Clutch noise always changes when engaged and disengaged.
Call MV and ask if the clutch recall was done.
 
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