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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys,

I have a MV 750 F4 MY00 and recently had troubles with the gear box. The symptoms are pretty similar as The Tomas describes, however the lever seems to recover by spring effect.

The main problem is that when the bike gets hot (at cold start don't seems to do it) I have dificulties to put 1st and 2nd gear. Sometimes seems get stuck in the gear and other times the gear box seems to to have his own life and jumps to the select gear. The curious thing is that at mid revs (on the run) there is no shifting problem, the problem resides mainly in 1st and 2nd gear at low revs, start-up or or changing gear between neutral.

So, before I put my hands on the tools, I need to understand if by the symptoms described above, the problem resides on the first cover where The Thomas has done the work, this because if your general comments will point to the gearbox, I'm not so confortable to work on this. Is there any chance that the problem is on the clutch set too?

Please guys, make your comments, your expertise will be very useful. Any english mistakes, please apologize.

Regards,
Nelson:f4:
 

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Nelson;
Welcome to the Forum.....

i think you may have 2 or 3 problems

>1st bleed your clutch...... because the clutch is not releasing completely
>2nd check the movement of the shift lever with your fingers, it should feel the same both ways
>if the 1st thing didn't fix it and the 2nd thing is OK, it could be a bad clutch spring....you need to drain the oil into a clean pan and remove the clutch cover, there is a length for the springs, check the service manual, on the 4 spring clutches a weak spring will make the pressure plate drag, 6 spring clutches don't do that (usually)
>jumping into gears could be part #800092490 item #30 page G11 of the parts manual....it keeps the shift drum from turning without a push on the lever

no problems with your English :drummer:
 

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I would also add.....fresh oil may be all you need!!

But The Knurl is spot on about the clutch fluid needing bleeding and possibly clutch springs/plates inspected if fresh clutch fluid and oil doesn't improve things.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Guys, thanx a lot for your feedback.

First of all, I've already changed the clutch fluid and made some adjustments on the clutch lever fine tunning, it seems to get better but it was until the first quarter-mille, quickly come to the same. It was the first thing and easy to do in the way to get any good results.

The shift lever has good recover by spring effect to both sides, so I think the Item#35 is out of question, no? Noel, from the two springs inside the front cover, as shift lever seems ok in terms of recovering, my suspicious also goes to the Item#30 as you sugest. Looking to the drawing seems like the spring has an hook that can broke or jump. Question: there is any test to perform that can identify any problem with Item#30?

Now, about the clutch springs, if I've undertood well what you have written, there are two types of clutches, is that correct? 4 and 6 springs? How can we identify the type of clutch without remove the cover? There is any manual with 4 springs details? All manuals that I've founded have 6 springs.

Other thing, there is one post from a member showing the clutch pin (or rod = Item#12 from page G09) broken, do you think that this part can be the culprit? Do you know if I can pull out this pin to check without fall any bushing/washer? It's easy the access by removing the slave cylinder, so will be quick but without knowing the assembly I will not take risks and have components falling to the clutch case.

Again, thanx a lot for your thoughts, and please put new ones.

ps-I've download from one site that I can't find it anymore, 1 to 15 parts of the worshop manual with exceptional quality, excepts 15. EngineService (this one for Serie Oro). Are you aware of this site? Where can I download the Engine Service with better quality? Thanx
 

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F4[tiˈfoːzi];640321 said:
ps-I've download from one site that I can't find it anymore, 1 to 15 parts of the worshop manual with exceptional quality, excepts 15. EngineService (this one for Serie Oro). Are you aware of this site? Where can I download the Engine Service with better quality? Thanx

http://www.teamdouble3racing.com/manuals.php
 

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transmissions?

Nelson;
there is no test for item#30 visual inspection only

drain the oil and check the magnet for metal bits, like spring parts,
remove the clutch cover, be careful, the wiring harness will break the gasket
remove the pressure plate and measure the spring lengths, the correct minimum length is in the manual
pull the push rod item #12 page G09 if its OK, put it back
measure the thickness of the clutch pack the limit is in the manual

if the clutch springs are OK, which i think are 1/2 the problem

then you need to remove the outer transmission cover to check item #30

my vote;
the hook is gone off item#30 and hopefully its on your drain plug magnet
and you have a bad clutch spring

i don't speak Portuguese but as good as your English is Skype me
:drummer:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hi Noel,

Today was the day to check the items mentioned above, and:

1) Oil drained and no bits of spring in the magnet, just a kind of mud wich I think are micro particles from natural components worn. I've removed it with a blade and smash it against a white sheet of papper looking for metallic bits, fortunately no significant parts of metal were found.

2) No spring, big with legs or small with hook, was broken or out of place (shift lever spring was in place with the two legs and the hook was in the right place and doing is job)

3) I was able to remove the clutch push rod from this side and no damage (crack or worn) was seen (hope nothing has droped on the clutch set side, but soon I will check)

4) With cover out and components back in place, I've check them working with the shift lever and turning the wheel, it seems everything is ok. Even the sistem Items#22...#27 from page G11 seems doing his job, afterall I don't know how to verify its functioning properly, for me seems ok, any tips?

5) There is one pin that passes trought the spring legs and flat shift rod, do you know what is there for? The curious thing is that I don't see it in parts dwg.

6) Saw some oil around the slave cylinder fitting, is that comming along the push rod? Is it normal?

7) One thing that I've saw in some threads was the removing of chain on the sprocket to acess the cover. For me to see it was a nightmare as I don't have the tool (original bag of tools incomplete) to rotate the hub. But for my surprise I had no need to do it, the cover can be released without remove the chain. There's a tip for the next guys who might have to do this kind of job.

So, next step and base on your vote, lets see if the problem is in the clucth springs. Question: service limit is 34.4mm lenght. Manual says "Replace the springs exceeding the service limit". Exceeding? Shouldn't be less when springs are old due to work or old springs get bigger due to lack of strenght on steel?

Thanx again.
Regards,
Nelson

ps- Donsy, nice quality on this manual and nice site. Txs mate
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Noel, I've saw it selling as used part, clutch with 4 springs from a F4 1000. Doesn´t mentioned the bike MY, but I believe is about 2006.

Let's see what I've got in mine this afternoon.
Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hi Noel, here is a quick feedback from this afternoon:

Clutch (six springs) opened and nothing broken. Don't have vernier caliper to check springs lenght and discs thickness, but looks like they are in good shape.

However, I have a question about Item#11 (page G09), seems to me it has a considerable worn due to rod action when clutch pressed (I will measure it soon), can this cause clutch malfuntion?

And what about the clutch slave cyplinder, it's possible to have also a malfunction in the way that when clutch pressed the rod don't do all the stroke?

I believe something is not allowing rod to do all the job and 1st/2nd gears are in trouble with this.
But I will check dims for springs and disks.

Another subject, manual shows instructions about clutch assembly, about marks to be followed and last disk of set a litlle bit rotated related to previous. I have some doubts about the marks, where are they on the disks, shaft, disks housing and disks pusher plate. Also if there is a side for disks, I've marked them, but if new, there is a side?

Next instrutions on manual are not so clear to me, can you help me on this?

"Assemble the block respecting the 3 grippings particularly verifying the one with the drive shaft."

"The first 8 garnished disks must be assembled in the same clutch dome groove. The last disk must be rotated a pace further than the proceeding ones."

Maybe there is on thread about cluth asm with pics.

Regards,

Nelson
 

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I think you are looking at the manual for a later model clutch. Are all your friction plates the same or do you have two different sizes there ?
 

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F4[tiˈfoːzi];643850 said:
However, I have a question about Item#11 (page G09), seems to me it has a considerable worn due to rod action when clutch pressed (I will measure it soon), can this cause clutch malfuntion?

no, but the bearing it rides in can, item #7 (page G09)

And what about the clutch slave cylinder, it's possible to have also a malfunction in the way that when clutch pressed the rod don't do all the stroke?

not if its bled correctly, as long as the seal isn't leaking

I believe something is not allowing rod to do all the job and 1st/2nd gears are in trouble with this.
But I will check dims for springs and disks.

Another subject, manual shows instructions about clutch assembly, about marks to be followed and last disk of set a little bit rotated related to previous. I have some doubts about the marks, where are they on the disks, shaft, disks housing and disks pusher plate. Also if there is a side for disks, I've marked them, but if new, there is a side?

Next instructions on manual are not so clear to me, can you help me on this?

"Assemble the block respecting the 3 grippings particularly verifying the one with the drive shaft."

???got me

"The first 8 garnished disks must be assembled in the same clutch dome groove. The last disk must be rotated a pace further than the proceeding ones."

the 9 fiber discs have one dark tab, i put all the tabs in the same slot in the clutch basket, i haven't seen any marks on the steel plates or hub
the rounded edge of the hub thrust washer goes toward the engine

Maybe there is on thread about clutch asm with pics.

Regards,

Nelson
the translation in your manual is very different than in mine
750 Parts #800098957 ed #2
same as in my 1000 engine manual #8A00A3313 ed.#1


it would be very nice if the Factory hired someone that speaks English and knows motors etc to proofread these POS
 

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Nelson,

When you took the gear select side cover off did you check the puntale springs undrneath the pawls in the gear shift drum? If one or both of them is broken or weak and the pawls are not engaging the drum every time this may be the problem. Just a thought.

Cheers

Deano
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hi Deano, thanx for the tip.
However, can you put a image and identify those parts you talk?
It's dificult for me to identify the parts you talk about.
Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Deano, I've look for spare parts list catlogue, are the items#25 from page G11 the springs you are talking about? I didn't check them by disassemble, I've just move the shift lever and see them working, some times get stuck but I thought it was due to engine not working. Perhaps there's something there, I will check beter.Thanx
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Guys, some dimensions measured from the parts disassembled:

clutch springs -> 35.4+/-0.1mm
garnishead disks -> 3.03+/-0.02mm
smoothe disks -> 1.98+/-0.01mm
clutch rod pusher item#11pgG09-> worn aprox t0 0.075 deep

One doubt about the manual specs, it says:

"Measure the length “L” of the springs with a gauge.
Service limit: 34.4 mm
Replace the springs exceeding the service limit."

Beeing a compression spring, shouldn't the manual say "Replace the springs BELLOW the service limit"?

Regards,
Nelson
 

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Nelson,

I've attached an image of the puntale springs and pawls. Not sure what mileage you have on yours but the pawls can wear on the edges. Not had that experience with with my MV but have with other bikes.

I have seen a post in the past from an F4 owner who had broken one or both of the springs under the pawls and he couldn't shift. Pain in the arse having to drain the oil and coolant but worth going back in and checking.

Cheers

Deano
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Deano, thanx a lot for the tips. Super image and notes :)

I still have the cover and fluids out as I don't have positive sure of what it's the problem, so I can check it. It's easy to mount/dismount springs/paws/puntales? Any concern about position or marks?

I have 11K kms (aprox 6-7 K milles), I don´t think with this milleage can have worn on that, or might happens? But it's a second hand bike so milleage can be cheated, i don't believe but...

Did you saw the dimensions toked from clutch components? What do you think?

Other thing I would inspect is the slave cylinder for any leak, when I've toked out it was dirt, not knowing if it was dot leak or engine oil that comes fro push rod.

Regards,
Nelson
 

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Nelson,

Sorry mate but can't tell from the picture. You have to take it out to check. The pawls look like they are being forced out by the springs but that doesn't mean they aren't weak or broken or that the pawl edges aren't worn and slipping.

If this isn't the problem then I would check the shifter forks for wear or if one isn't bent maybe if it's only happening in 1st and 2nd.

I would try slackening off your chain a bit first to see if it improves also. I run mine a bit (lot) looser than recommended and find it shifts better down low and neutral is easier to find.

Sorry I can't be of more help mate.

Cheers

Deano
 

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