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Discussion Starter #1
as most of you know i had my new non-cat midpipe and cans put on a couple of weeks ago.
better FI
very smooth
great sound
more power
less weight

all that
today.....
i finally took it through its paces
and......

the mileage...
24.5
the smell of RAW GAS everytime i roade it VERY HARD
the usual STRONG SMELL of EXHAUST at idle
my friend was riding behind me on his 'busa... LOVES the brute....
but, ALSO smelled RAW GAS everytime i was hard on the gas

probably means nothing
NO, i have NOT bought a PCIII yet....
i must.... then, have the bike properly dyno'd

then..... we'll see

sound strange to any of you?

thanks in advance for your thoughts



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Sounds like it's running excessively rich. The instructions with the new EPROM call for C0% at idle to be between 3.5 and 4.5%. I reset mine to ~4% the other day and it runs very crisply. I never smell raw gas, even at idle it doen't smell of excessive hydrocarbon.

Adjusting the fuel trimmer on the MM1.6 module alters the entire fuel map. In other words, leaning the mixture at idle results in leaner running throughout the map. I suggest putting it on an exhaust sniffer.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Koop said:
Sounds like it's running excessively rich. The instructions with the new EPROM call for C0% at idle to be between 3.5 and 4.5%. I reset mine to ~4% the other day and it runs very crisply. I never smell raw gas, even at idle it doen't smell of excessive hydrocarbon.

Adjusting the fuel trimmer on the MM1.6 module alters the entire fuel map. In other words, leaning the mixture at idle results in leaner running throughout the map. I suggest putting it on an exhaust sniffer.

thanks for your thoughts
the funny thing is that when i got the bike back from the shop (remember, that i had THEM do the install) it's been running better than ever
>75% of my FI problems vanished with the new EPROM and 1/2 system install...
leaning out the bike at idle might very well screw with the smoothness....
and i don't want that

so...
i need that PCIII/USB and dyno
maybe.....
i'll just ship the bike to JOHN/airfuel and have HIM do it for me.... the right way

he's the one i'd trust the most
that sure would be a COSTLY DYNO... having to ship the bike to and from florida :jsm:



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My stock 910 only gets about 25 to 28 MPG when run hard, which is most of the time. The only exhaust or performance modification is an Aero mid-pipe. She runs great but the Brutale is a thirsty girl.
 

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spalding12 said:
thanks for your thoughts
the funny thing is that when i got the bike back from the shop (remember, that i had THEM do the install) it's been running better than ever
>75% of my FI problems vanished with the new EPROM and 1/2 system install...
leaning out the bike at idle might very well screw with the smoothness....
and i don't want that

so...
i need that PCIII/USB and dyno
maybe.....
i'll just ship the bike to JOHN/airfuel and have HIM do it for me.... the right way

he's the one i'd trust the most
that sure would be a COSTLY DYNO... having to ship the bike to and from florida :jsm:
Greg, you really should consider taking it back in to have the CO adjustment made. If it's rich enough to smell raw gas in the exhaust then you are most likely washing the cylinders - leading to ring wear, and diluting the crankcase - which breaks down the oil.

They should have checked/adjusted CO when installing the pipe and EPROM. It's clearly spelled out in the instructions.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Koop said:
Greg, you really should consider taking it back in to have the CO adjustment made. If it's rich enough to smell raw gas in the exhaust then you are most likely washing the cylinders - leading to ring wear, and diluting the crankcase - which breaks down the oil.

They should have checked/adjusted CO when installing the pipe and EPROM. It's clearly spelled out in the instructions.
Mike
they insisted that they did that
but....
i think i'll bring it back next week some time
between this issue and that of my brake master cylinder being replaced TWICE on my new GT..... i've been in there so many times



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Some say that PCIII are useless because they only work good at the weatherconditions they are dyno'd to. When weather, temperature, height over sea and stuff changes you might loose power.

Anyone who can confirm/disconfirm this?

spalding12 said:
NO, i have NOT bought a PCIII yet....
i must.... then, have the bike properly dyno'd
 

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William Blake said:
Some say that PCIII are useless because they only work good at the weatherconditions they are dyno'd to. When weather, temperature, height over sea and stuff changes you might loose power.

Anyone who can confirm/disconfirm this?

I'd have to call it myth. The PCIII modifies the original map, it adds or subtracts pulse width. The original map in an Alpha/N fuel injection system is based on inputs from rpm, throttle position and pressure sensors (may be just barometric or may include manifold or airbox pressure signals to compensate for any ram effects).

Therefore, if the PCIII is only adding or subtracting pulse width from the programmed map, and the programmed map changes with air density how can PCIII only work at the dyno'd air density?
 

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William Blake said:
Some say that PCIII are useless because they only work good at the weatherconditions they are dyno'd to. When weather, temperature, height over sea and stuff changes you might loose power.

Anyone who can confirm/disconfirm this?
When the weather conditions change you can loose power regardless, it depends on how the conditions are changed. In regards to the power commander you have two types of systems (FI systems). The simple or open loop systems use on some bikes will use sensors such as barometric pressure sensors, MAP sensors and temperature sensors and determine the mass of air entering the engine at any given time. The FI then uses that data and some algorythm to determine how much fuel to add at that particular time. That is, it determines where it is on the map and adds a specified amount of fuel. A closed system basically takes this one step further by measuring the O2 in the exhaust gas and determines whether you are rich or lean compared to the map and corrects for the error.

The PC alters the map by some user specified input. You pick a point on the map and based on your dyno-tuning say I want this point to be X amount richer or leaner. As far as the ECU is concerned it still thinks you want the OEM installed map; the PC is what changes how much fuel is delivered. From what I understand, the old PCIIs used to fool the ECU by changing the signals it recieved from the sensors, the newer PCIII takes the output signal to the injectors and alters it to deliver the amount of fuel required. I may not be 100% right on that, but that is my understanding. Regardless, the power commander will alter the signal to deliver a certain percentage change which produces more power. If you go to altitude you will loose power simply because of the altitude change. But if you've altered the FI map so that is optimized at sea level, it will still be optimized at altitude.
 

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RobP said:
When the weather conditions change you can loose power regardless, it depends on how the conditions are changed. In regards to the power commander you have two types of systems (FI systems). The simple or open loop systems use on some bikes will use sensors such as barometric pressure sensors, MAP sensors and temperature sensors and determine the mass of air entering the engine at any given time. The FI then uses that data and some algorythm to determine how much fuel to add at that particular time. That is, it determines where it is on the map and adds a specified amount of fuel. A closed system basically takes this one step further by measuring the O2 in the exhaust gas and determines whether you are rich or lean compared to the map and corrects for the error.

The PC alters the map by some user specified input. You pick a point on the map and based on your dyno-tuning say I want this point to be X amount richer or leaner. As far as the ECU is concerned it still thinks you want the OEM installed map; the PC is what changes how much fuel is delivered. From what I understand, the old PCIIs used to fool the ECU by changing the signals it recieved from the sensors, the newer PCIII takes the output signal to the injectors and alters it to deliver the amount of fuel required. I may not be 100% right on that, but that is my understanding. Regardless, the power commander will alter the signal to deliver a certain percentage change which produces more power. If you go to altitude you will loose power simply because of the altitude change. But if you've altered the FI map so that is optimized at sea level, it will still be optimized at altitude.
Thanks for expanding on my simplified explanation.

As far as PCII vs PCIII goes, it's a small matter of accuracy. Changing the input to influence the output vs altering the output.

Alpha/N system vs mass airflow systems is another matter. Automobiles have progressed to mass airflow system while bikes are still in the flintstone age.

As you said, lower air density will always equal less ouput. My point was - less output with the standard map has an equal effect on the PCIII map.
 

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Both PC2 and PC3 alter the outout of the original ecu by adding or subtracting a percentage of the injector signal, neither have any input to the original ecu, the main advantage of a PC3 is the mapping points are every 250rpm instead of 500 rpm, it also has a USB connection.

With regard to the co trimmer in the m1.6 ecu I thought it added a time difference to the injector signal so the larger the time (as in greater inj opening) the smaller the added signal effectively got?
 

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Koop, you beat me too it. WHen I started typing your reply wasn't there. By the time my slow ass finished, you had scooped me! I think we both pretty much said the same thing anyway ;)
 

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mikef4uk said:
Both PC2 and PC3 alter the outout of the original ecu by adding or subtracting a percentage of the injector signal, neither have any input to the original ecu, the main advantage of a PC3 is the mapping points are every 250rpm instead of 500 rpm, it also has a USB connection.

With regard to the co trimmer in the m1.6 ecu I thought it added a time difference to the injector signal so the larger the time (as in greater inj opening) the smaller the added signal effectively got?
Precisely...It changes the time difference as a percentage (as far as I know) so the the difference diminishes with wth increased pulse width.
 

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mikef4uk said:
Both PC2 and PC3 alter the outout of the original ecu by adding or subtracting a percentage of the injector signal, neither have any input to the original ecu, the main advantage of a PC3 is the mapping points are every 250rpm instead of 500 rpm, it also has a USB connection.
Yes and no. (Robp was correct)

The PCII utilizes "sensor offset" technology to adjust the fuel curve. Signals from the various sensors on the bike are monitored by the PCII and these signals are recalculated and sent to the ECU in order to achieve the required fuel curve.
So in essence, the PCII does change signals to the bikes ECU. The problem was if any one sensor started to fail, all other parameters are out the window, but it was discontinued at the end of 2005 so if you see one throw it out!
The PCIII utilizes "direct injector control" technology to control the fuel curve. The PCIII takes the injector pulse from the ECU and changes the pulse width signal to the injectors. It does not alter or change the ECU in any way.

Internal combustion engines are simple really, they like a certain ratio of air to fuel to run correctly.

For best power, 12.9-13.2 is a good ratio. (depends on the particular engine) You can go a little leaner for cruise so gas mileage doesn't suffer too much. (if you really worry about that in hi-performance $20,000 bikes :jerkoff: )

Greg, with the super duper hi-po exhaust fitted, MV assumes you will be spanking the bike very hard. A rich mixture is very safe in those conditions and that is why driveability is better than with the lean "stock" chip. Throwing a bunch of fuel at an engine masks plenty of problems but you can go too far.

A REALLY good dealer with good diagnostic equipment can get most bike in the ballpark as far as good running but it seems not too many care.

With a PC, one is able to fine tune every throttle position and rpm quickly. I usually set 3 different a/f ratios on most bikes. a little leaner for light cruise and progressively richer for full throttle.

Weather condition do change how bikes run, but if your bike is running at it's best, extreme weather will not change driveabilty as much.

I'm tired from chasing Annuci around today on my slow Guzzi :moped: ....I'm pooped!
 

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airfuel said:
... I'm tired from chasing Annuci around today on my slow Guzzi :moped: ....I'm pooped!
Yeah, right. It was humbling riding behind you. You are super smooth and your bike sounds incredible. Man I blew that one turn that played with my mind the whole way home. I target fixated on the car coming the other way and ran wide over the double yellow. Luckily I corrected in time.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
airfuel said:
Greg, with the super duper hi-po exhaust fitted, MV assumes you will be spanking the bike very hard. A rich mixture is very safe in those conditions and that is why driveability is better than with the lean "stock" chip. Throwing a bunch of fuel at an engine masks plenty of problems but you can go too far.

A REALLY good dealer with good diagnostic equipment can get most bike in the ballpark as far as good running but it seems not too many care.

With a PC, one is able to fine tune every throttle position and rpm quickly. I usually set 3 different a/f ratios on most bikes. a little leaner for light cruise and progressively richer for full throttle.
hmmmmm
i really wish i could just send you my bike to be "fixed" with only the JOHN TOUCH

thanks so much for your thoughts and advice



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airfuel said:
With a PC, one is able to fine tune every throttle position and rpm quickly. I usually set 3 different a/f ratios on most bikes. a little leaner for light cruise and progressively richer for full throttle.

!
Yes! It's been known for decades that idle mixtures should be richer than stoichiometric and full throttle should be be rich as well as well. Optimum cruise mixtures can be set for economy or whatever you desire.

FI maps that are intended for track (off road) follow this parameter. It's only when you introduce EPA regulation that fuel maps stray from this ideal.
 
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