[Mitch]

I did two track days at Thunderhill in Northern California last weekend. I had a great time, but was running even slower than usual due to it being my first track day in 20 months, and not having any track skins yet.

I was running a leisurely 2:30+ per lap. I had the suspension dialed in on Saturday, and had scrubbed in the new Michelin Pilot Power 2CT tires.

On Sunday I let my friend take my bike out as he wanted to try it, and had never ridden an F4 1000 before (only a 750). My friend has been riding about 15 years and is quite fast. He was running 2:05 laps on his 1098S.

On my bike he was having some fun, but not pushing it too hard as he didn't want to do anything crazy. He estimated he was running about 2:20 laps and came in about halfway through a 20 minute session. He got an unexpected tire slide going into turn one and a more unpleasant slide of 10-15 feet in turn 4, while on his knee, before the front tire hooked back up.

When he came back in, you could see that he was running off the front tire on my bike. On his Ducati 1098S there was 3/8" on either side of his front tire that was clean, and he was charging the corners much harder as evidenced by his much faster lap times on his bike.

He told me to post up here and see if you guys had any ideas, since this model bike has been raced at the national Superbike level, and should obviously be capable to going faster than that without these issues.

I have a 120/70 on the front, and a 190/50 on the rear. I'm a size 56 Euro and he's 52, so the weight difference between us isn't that big. He had race tires on his 1098S, but gave my tires a couple of laps to warm up.

Ideas???

(I'm assuming this is something that can be adjusted and not inherent to the geometry of the bike.)

 

[J_Spec]

i'm actually in the same boat as you. when i had my 2CTs (same size) the front always felt like it wanted to wash-out. i could never get it to the angles i get it to now on my Supercorsas (180/55 rear).

 

[MVASyd]

You really can't compare race tyres to the 2CT's. Try a stickier set of tyres and go with a 55 rear. Remember to take measurements and adjsust the ride height for the 55 tyre.

The suspension also needs setting up I found the track settings too hard so make sure you are getting the front working. Take a day and spend it setting the ride height and suspension. Keep those for track days. The settings for road and track are different. If you enjoy it, these need a bit of fiddling with, just like a race bike(or a Ducati). They are aslo very finnicky on tyre pressures.

Have fun

 

[J_Spec]

i know you can't really compare race tires to 2CTs, but it was rediculous with my 2CTs it ALWAYS felt like it was going to low side and i wasn't even getting to the edge! i keep hearing so many positive remarks about the 2CT being 'confidence inspiring,' but mine just made me not want to ride.

 

[DB Graves]

2CT's Warm up fast, bounce nice and are great for road and B-C group track day use...once you start getting into the fast side of the B group, you (or in this case, your friend) will start over-riding the tire, but know, if it felt OK to you, you prob aren't pushing it too hard at this point to matter, there's a HUGE difference between 2:30 & 2:20 lap times. The Mich Pilot 2CT's are a great all around tire, but they have their limits and Mich's next step up, the Pilot One may be more than you need and they (like all DOT race tires) are harder to warm up and In my humble op, a waste of tire on the road. I'd also say it would be good to have your bike set up by someone who actually does race set ups (like a Dan Kyle in Monterey or Stig in So Cal) not saying you would need to worry about that for the road, but at least you'll know on the track that what ever may not be happening is prob more in your technique than in the bike. Relax, concentrate on getting smooth and have fun on the track, as that's what it's there for...once you're speed starts coming up, start thinking about your next set of tires...the 2CT's are cert good enough until you start pushing into the fast group...after that, there are great ops in tires from Pir & Dun, as well as Mich. Just start visiting the local racing boards and see what the fast guys are saying about tires in your area.

 

[Turbo329]

I did two track days at Thunderhill in Northern California last weekend. I had a great time, but was running even slower than usual due to it being my first track day in 20 months, and not having any track skins yet.

I was running a leisurely 2:30+ per lap. I had the suspension dialed in on Saturday, and had scrubbed in the new Michelin Pilot Power 2CT tires.

On Sunday I let my friend take my bike out as he wanted to try it, and had never ridden an F4 1000 before (only a 750). My friend has been riding about 15 years and is quite fast. He was running 2:05 laps on his 1098S.

On my bike he was having some fun, but not pushing it too hard as he didn't want to do anything crazy. He estimated he was running about 2:20 laps and came in about halfway through a 20 minute session. He got an unexpected tire slide going into turn one and a more unpleasant slide of 10-15 feet in turn 4, while on his knee, before the front tire hooked back up.

When he came back in, you could see that he was running off the front tire on my bike. On his Ducati 1098S there was 3/8" on either side of his front tire that was clean, and he was charging the corners much harder as evidenced by his much faster lap times on his bike.

He told me to post up here and see if you guys had any ideas, since this model bike has been raced at the national Superbike level, and should obviously be capable to going faster than that without these issues.

I have a 120/70 on the front, and a 190/50 on the rear. I'm a size 56 Euro and he's 52, so the weight difference between us isn't that big. He had race tires on his 1098S, but gave my tires a couple of laps to warm up.

Ideas???

(I'm assuming this is something that can be adjusted and not inherent to the geometry of the bike.)

Mitch,

I had the same problem on my F4. I recently lowered the ride height in the rear and the damn thing rides like a dream now. It was too high in the back and being that I'm 235 with my leathers on when I got on the brakes the front end was very unstable and I never felt comfortable with traction in the rear.

I ended up maxing out the preload in the rear to get my sag right for my weight then I dropped the rear of the bike as low as it could go. I practiced some emergency braking maneuvers last night and I can stop as well as trail brake with much more confidence now. Try it, you might like it.

If you are happy with your compression and rebound settings front and rear, try adjusting the rear ride height. Don't touch the front end. Just get some weight off of the front.

Also, very important......> When did the bike want to tuck?

On corner entry? - If so, drop the rear as I suggested and give a click or two of compression damping on the forks.
Mid Corner? - Soften rebound damping on the forks a couple of clicks.
Lost traction on the rear exiting the corner? - Soften compression in the rear and lower the rear a tad

Adjust little by little and see how she feels.

 

[DB Graves]

Mitch,

I had the same problem on my F4. I recently lowered the ride height in the rear and the damn thing rides like a dream now. It was too high in the back and being that I'm 235 with my leathers on when I got on the brakes the front end was very unstable and I never felt comfortable with traction in the rear.

I ended up maxing out the preload in the rear to get my sag right for my weight then I dropped the rear of the bike as low as it could go. I practiced some emergency braking maneuvers last night and I can stop as well as trail brake with much more confidence now. Try it, you might like it.

If you are happy with your compression and rebound settings front and rear, try adjusting the rear ride height. Don't touch the front end. Just get some weight off of the front.

Also, very important......> When did the bike want to tuck?

On corner entry? - If so, drop the rear as I suggested and give a click or two of compression damping on the forks.
Mid Corner? - Soften rebound damping on the forks a couple of clicks.
Lost traction on the rear exiting the corner? - Soften compression in the rear and lower the rear a tad

Adjust little by little and see how she feels.

Sound advice...also remember, the ave Italian bike is set up for a 5' 9" 165 pound rider, so if you're noticeably larger, you may need stiffer fork springs, but this stuff can make you crazy, which is why I sug going to a good pro set up guy, but you don't need $800 worth of fork rebuilds or $2500 Superbike front forks this early in the game. With that said, try and find a person with MV exp at the same time...you're goal is a solid, predictable, balanced bike, not some knife edged darting rocket.

I got some very solid advice from Freddie Spencer, Doug Chandler & Jeff Haney over the past few years (all are fast and all are good teachers) all used different words, but said the same thing...

"make sure your bike is set up for your ability and weight, and then slow down...most new track riders are pushing way too hard for their experience and ability. You can't learn anything about riding fast, unless you're comfortable with what the bike is doing, and you can't feel what the bike is doing if you're riding above your head and ability and spending most of your track time in survival mode. Most high-sides with novices are based on the rider not knowing the back end is coming around until it's too late, as a result of too much throttle for the lean angle, a poor line, or too much throttle too early at the exit of the turn and most low-sides are based on too much front brake input, based on some sort of panic"

So in other words, become an expert and comfortable with laps at 2:32 (if 2:30 is your fastest) and then speed up at a rate that matches you ability and comfort zone

 

[Turbo329]

Mitch,

I was reading your post again and noticed that you said the front lost traction and then hooked up. If that's the case I think your front is dialed in good based on the fact that your friend regained traction to begin with. A poorly set up front end would have never recovered. Don't play with the clicks at first. Just try to get some weight off of the front so it doesn't break loose in the first place. I would lower the rear a tad and start from there.

Also, you said he rides a Duc. I too rode a Duc (you can check my gallery) and let me be the first to tell you that they are completely different animals. My Duc loved to be muscled around and if you do that on the MV you will definitely lose the front. I had to ride two completely different styles when I switched from bike to bike.

I recently sold both Ducs and ride the MV primarily now.

Lastly, I didn't particularly like the Pilot Powers on the MV. I loved them for the Duc though. I run Metzeler M3 on the MV now and they feel pretty good. I'll see how they respond at full lean and let you know.

 

[yo_clarkie]

Mitch,

I had the same problem on my F4. I recently lowered the ride height in the rear and the damn thing rides like a dream now. It was too high in the back and being that I'm 235 with my leathers on when I got on the brakes the front end was very unstable and I never felt comfortable with traction in the rear.

I ended up maxing out the preload in the rear to get my sag right for my weight then I dropped the rear of the bike as low as it could go. I practiced some emergency braking maneuvers last night and I can stop as well as trail brake with much more confidence now. Try it, you might like it.

If you are happy with your compression and rebound settings front and rear, try adjusting the rear ride height. Don't touch the front end. Just get some weight off of the front.

Also, very important......> When did the bike want to tuck?

On corner entry? - If so, drop the rear as I suggested and give a click or two of compression damping on the forks.
Mid Corner? - Soften rebound damping on the forks a couple of clicks.
Lost traction on the rear exiting the corner? - Soften compression in the rear and lower the rear a tad

Adjust little by little and see how she feels.

This is extremely helpful, I am the same weight kitted up +/- 1 kg

Everything makes sense, and I am keen to try setting up the suspension as I got quite a fright riding a 749S Duc in the weekend that was 3x easier to corner on the twisty roads (and at a much higher speeds) than the F41000S. Talk about gutted! I know its all in there, but suspect the setup is out by a mile and needs to setup from scratch. (Previous owner, new bike to me a few weeks ago)

Would you please be able to measure the ride height as you have it set from the ground to the middle of the rivet in the slipon? I see in the gallery your pictures showing standard exhaust, it would be a great way to start! If its off the top of the factory rear stand that would also work (running 55 profile tire).

I will then do the sag front and back and then perhaps setup the shock to "Normal" as per the factory manual as a starating position.

If you have any suggested starting positions for the forks or shock based on your experience, please share, with so many adjustments possible, this could take a while

P.S. NICE BIKE! (I have its twin here in NZ)

 

[Turbo329]

This is extremely helpful, I am the same weight kitted up +/- 1 kg

Everything makes sense, and I am keen to try setting up the suspension as I got quite a fright riding a 749S Duc in the weekend that was 3x easier to corner on the twisty roads (and at a much higher speeds) than the F41000S. Talk about gutted! I know its all in there, but suspect the setup is out by a mile and needs to setup from scratch. (Previous owner, new bike to me a few weeks ago)

Would you please be able to measure the ride height as you have it set from the ground to the middle of the rivet in the slipon? I see in the gallery your pictures showing standard exhaust, it would be a great way to start! If its off the top of the factory rear stand that would also work (running 55 profile tire).

I will then do the sag front and back and then perhaps setup the shock to "Normal" as per the factory manual as a starating position.

If you have any suggested starting positions for the forks or shock based on your experience, please share, with so many adjustments possible, this could take a while

I can try to take some measurements at the track this weekend but I won't have my starting measurements because I didn't measure it before I adjusted it.

**edit** my ride height is in the lowest setting and my preload is maxed out. Since you have the same bike there is probably no need to measure afterall.

 

[yo_clarkie]

I can try to take some measurements at the track this weekend but I won't have my starting measurements because I didn't measure it before I adjusted it.

Just seen your edit, lowest setting for real, well OK, thats easy!

Looking to borrow from your experience if possible :naughty:

Your advise makes sense and has given me a idea of where to start.

Much thanks!

Dave

 

[The_castle]

Would it be possible to post some pictures of your front and rear tyres showing the wear to the edges? This will help me give advice.

 

[Bib_Tyre]

As a tire (tyre) nerd, I don't won't to sound negative but when instructors at race schools can go within 1 second of full on race tires on Michelin 2CT perhaps it's not the tires. Honestly, it's hard to buy bad tires these day. Mostly personal choice.

 

[yo_clarkie]

Would it be possible to post some pictures of your front and rear tyres showing the wear to the edges? This will help me give advice.

Not my thread, but.... since you asked

At work, but its not good, running off the edges of the front (slight feathering) and not getting to the edge at all on the rears - virgin rubber for the last cm. On the road mind you, not the track as yet.

 

[DB Graves]

As a tire (tyre) nerd, I don't won't to sound negative but when instructors at race schools can go within 1 second of full on race tires on Michelin 2CT perhaps it's not the tires. Honestly, it's hard to buy bad tires these day. Mostly personal choice.

They are great tires and I used them from the day they came out...but race instructors, are generally very good riders with a million laps around the track they teach on and they would be fast on any tire. The 2CT's almost come warmed up and they are forgiving, right up until they let go...a great rider can feel them getting to the edge, an OK rider (which most of us are) cannot, that's their only real problem. Guys ride them when they're starting out and get faster and faster, as they breed lean confidence...then their new found "ability" bites them on the ass the second the thing steps out and you're sliding down the track on your butt.

 

[Velocemoto]

They are great tires and I used them from the day they came out...but race instructors, are generally very good riders with a million laps around the track they teach on and they would be fast on any tire. The 2CT's almost come warmed up and they are forgiving, right up until they let go...a great rider can feel them getting to the edge, an OK rider (which most of us are) cannot, that's their only real problem. Guys ride them when they're starting out and get faster and faster, as they breed lean confidence...then their new found "ability" bites them on the ass the second the thing steps out and you're sliding down the track on your butt.

That sounds like me Donny !!! LOL
So now I'm on Supercorsas in the summer/trackdays :naughty: It's only me interfearing with decent laptimes, not the tires

I use to run Pilots, and crashed my 750 on them...but I had the rear spin up and let go, so im not help to this converstion at all !

 

[DB Graves]

Yep...nicer to have something that gives the non superstar a little warning before, slip, wham!

 

[Turbo329]

Not my thread, but.... since you asked

At work, but its not good, running off the edges of the front (slight feathering) and not getting to the edge at all on the rears - virgin rubber for the last cm. On the road mind you, not the track as yet.

Definitely lower the rear!!!!

Trust me bro. I've dragged my elbow and still had room on the front tire.


Regarding tires. The new batch of street tires these days are just as good as far as lap times go compared to race tires. The only thing is that they tend to get greasy and hot towards the end of the session and the grip starts to fade slightly but they will be fine before you start your next session after they've cooled down.

I've actually heard of guys racing on street tires such as the 2CTs.

 

[Turbo329]

They are great tires and I used them from the day they came out...but race instructors, are generally very good riders with a million laps around the track they teach on and they would be fast on any tire. The 2CT's almost come warmed up and they are forgiving, right up until they let go...a great rider can feel them getting to the edge, an OK rider (which most of us are) cannot, that's their only real problem. Guys ride them when they're starting out and get faster and faster, as they breed lean confidence...then their new found "ability" bites them on the ass the second the thing steps out and you're sliding down the track on your butt.

I heard that at the Schwantz school they use street tires.

 

[Velocemoto]

Definitely lower the rear!!!!

Trust me bro. I've dragged my elbow and still had room on the front tire.

Regarding tires. The new batch of street tires these days are just as good as far as lap times go compared to race tires. The only thing is that they tend to get greasy and hot towards the end of the session and the grip starts to fade slightly but they will be fine before you start your next session after they've cooled down.

I've actually heard of guys racing on street tires such as the 2CTs.

100% agree Turbo
Pilots Powers get a little ragged near the end of a session if it's really hot....for sure.
That's the main noticable difference between a typical pilot power type tire and supercorsa for example...
The Supercorsa grips all day, no matter what the session type or heat of the day.

I'm similar on the tire wear too....off the edge on the rear and still 5-6 mm virgin rubber on the front....but this is on Supercorsas that seem to have a tall profile on the front, as the old 2CT's I ran were off the edge both front and back with a similar set up