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Discussion Starter #1
Hey,

I drained my oil on my 2006 F4 and found this stuck to the drain plug. It was even more mangled before I straightened it out a bit to get a better look at it.
A few people thought it might be bearing related, but not sure from what part of the engine.

Anyone have ideas?

It's ferrous as it stuck to the magnetic drain plug.

I haven't heard any rattling or other nasty sounds when running the engine. It's been months since I changed the oil so I don't know how long it's been down there.

I will open up the engine but wanted any tips before I do so.

Thank you!
 

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Bearing cage......

Looks like its from the main shaft bearing on clutch side page B 67 of the Engine Manual
Pull the clutch and thrust washer, look at the cage....probably will be missing cage pieces and rivets,
There are 2 sides to the cage
2nd choice, CS output bearing behind the CS sprocket, for that remove transmission

DON'T RIDE THE BIKE, NOTHING WILL PUT YOU ON YOUR ASS FASTER THAN TRASH LOCKING YOUR
TRANSMISSION.......THE CLUTCH CAN'T HELP YOU :surprise:

Bazza at 175mph in the banking at Daytona.....probably added 18oz of stainless steel to his body weight that time
>:)>:)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi,
Thanks for digging around the parts diagram- I was searching though it as well to see whether this piece my be some stand alone part, but I also found nothing alone those lines.
When I drained the oil there was nearly no swarth- super clean overall (other than this big ass mangled piece of metal :)
Thanks for your help and time!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi,

Thank you for your detailed thoughts!

If this is in fact a bearing cage (which so far seems like the most plausible), wouldn't the bearing itself basically have to be ripped open for the cage to tear out and fall to the oil pan? If so, then wouldn't we expect in the very least to see ball bearings in the oil pan? Would I also expect to have heard or felt something when riding it either at the moment it tore apart or after? I have no idea how many rides I have been on since that metal piece fell, but in all my rides I have never heard or felt anything wrong.

Thanks for any more thoughts on this!
 

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Yes, it's a bearing cage. No, you most likely would not notice if the balls didn't come out of the race. Transmission is so easy to take out that you just go for it. Usually this type of cage failure is a result of an over-tightened drive chain.
 

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...... Usually this type of cage failure is a result of an over-tightened drive chain.
Wrong, the load on the cage is the same regardless of chain tension

Stress risers and vibration break bearing cages :wink2:
 

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:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
 
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NOTE: This is Bruce Meyers responding via Susie as my conduit. You are partly correct, but IMO and experience with rebuilding "plenty" of engines (not just MV), the stress load from an over-tight chain far exceeds normal bearing stress or vibration. When the suspension compresses the sprockets get further apart and the load numbers get huge. I am interested to learn if this was the output sprocket bearing or the clutch shaft bearing.
 

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@sleiper!: Hiya Bruce, Chuck Julius here...I was hoping you would chime in. Hope to see you this summer!
 
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I have seen more than one Suzuki Hayabusa with the drive shaft literally ripped out of the crankcases from an overly tightened chain. To say the loads get very big is an understatement, especially when you add in big horsepower.

Still, unusual for an MV do do this. The hub bearings would go first I should think.
 

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NOTE: This is Bruce Meyers responding via Susie as my conduit. You are partly correct, but IMO and experience with rebuilding "plenty" of engines (not just MV), the stress load from an over-tight chain far exceeds normal bearing stress or vibration. When the suspension compresses the sprockets get further apart and the load numbers get huge. I am interested to learn if this was the output sprocket bearing or the clutch shaft bearing.
I think Noel is saying that the load from an overtightened chain isnt transferred to the bearing cage but to the bearings.

Id definitely follow his advice on not riding the bike until the fault is rectified.

A sump removal and post mortem on the oil filter would be part of the plan for me.

Joe
 

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Oops

NOTE: This is Bruce Meyers responding via Susie as my conduit. You are partly correct, but IMO and experience with rebuilding "plenty" of engines (not just MV), the stress load from an over-tight chain far exceeds normal bearing stress or vibration. When the suspension compresses the sprockets get further apart and the load numbers get huge. I am interested to learn if this was the output sprocket bearing or the clutch shaft bearing.
Bruce;
A few mistakes, when a bike is correctly designed at rider sag the countershaft sprocket, swing arm pivot and rear axle
are in a straight line .......which is the MAXIMUM length ......IE where you adjust the chain......because that's where you are most of the time
When the suspension compresses or gets light the distance between the countershaft sprocket and rear axle DECREASES,
NOT INCREASES, reducing the load NOT increasing it

I know a bit about this.......I was chassis designer and fabricator for F.W. Egli for 4 1/2 years
Winner World Endurance Racing Manufacturers Championships '69-'74
Here's my contribution Egli Kawasaki #407 .....the "Freighttrain"
One bike, one motor won the World Championship '72, '73 and '74
The 900lb gorilla of endurance racing
The 3 trophies are for winning Bol 'd Or 3 times
The cover of Moto Revue 6-11-75
 

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A few mistakes, when a bike is correctly designed at rider sag the countershaft sprocket, swing arm pivot and rear axle
are in a straight line .......which is the MAXIMUM length ......IE where you adjust the chain......because that's where you are most of the time
When the suspension compresses or gets light the distance between the countershaft sprocket and rear axle DECREASES,
NOT INCREASES, reducing the load NOT increasing it
Noel, Bikes don't necessarily have swing arm points in a straight line when suspension is properly set for rider sag any more. Frequently will have the rear axle below the drive sprocket and pivot line.....bikes have more suspension travel than they did in your heyday.

Also consideration for squat and anti-squat come into play when determining swing arm pivot point relative to axles.

Now, a proper chain adjustment free play measurement takes all this into account. Unfortunately, people are prone to adjusting chains too tight. So when the suspension moves the loads can get very big. Like I said, I've seen GSX1300R transmission cases broken at the drive sprocket from tight chains.
 

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Case in point:

F4 312R.jpg
 

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Noel, Bikes don't necessarily have swing arm points in a straight line when suspension is properly set for rider sag any more. Frequently will have the rear axle below the drive sprocket and pivot line.....bikes have more suspension travel than they did in your heyday.

Also consideration for squat and anti-squat come into play when determining swing arm pivot point relative to axles.

Now, a proper chain adjustment free play measurement takes all this into account. Unfortunately, people are prone to adjusting chains too tight. So when the suspension moves the loads can get very big. Like I said, I've seen GSX1300R transmission cases broken at the drive sprocket from tight chains.
I never said motorcycle designers knew what they're doing.......
More suspension travel now Ed?
My '72 1/2 BMW R 75 had a stupid 8 inches on the front.......didn't work then either :grin2:
'73-'74 Suzuki TR-750s had RM-370 MX swing arms on them and threw chains all the time

Race cars run on the same tracks and use less suspension
With lots of suspension travel start having polar moment problems and radical steering angle changes

Anti dive and anti squat doesn't happen with minor shifts in the swing arm pivot point, major shifts cause major problems

The only bikes with real adjustable suspension like the Britten and ELF have anti dive and anti squat
Don't confuse them with POS like Kawasaki's FUBAR disaster

Find Leonard Terry's book, he explains how it works, he was the Chief Engineer at Lotus for years
 

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During a recent oil change on my 2000 F4 750 I found this in the oil - any ideas? Am I adjusting my chain incorrectly? Should I be concerned for the safety of Kazu and Hotiro who I have not seen in three days since I took the photo?
 

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:ahhh: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :tongue:
 

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@The_castle: I would not be concerned because I don't think that's magnetic.
 
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