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Discussion Starter #21
I just searched my resources and could not find the coil resistance spec.

There is no primary coil as the Plug Top Coils are driven by a low voltage signal from the ECU.
Ok Thx Silent!
 

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I thought about the brake cleaner method and decided against it. I'm going on vacation in 2 days and don't want any trips to the ER before hand LOL! And yes my bike already has those screws replaced with allen head screws. Although one is kinda stripped and needs to be replaced. I'll get to that next :grin2:
Don't worry about the flammability of the brake cleaner.....you should always have an extinguisher handy when
working with flammable products, just common sense :wink2:
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Ok guys, I'm reopening this one. The problem is back and it gets worse the hotter the bike gets and will even shut off at times when idling or coasting (i.e. off throttle with the clutch pulled in) . Luckily for me it starts right back up lol. Anyway, I recently replaced the O2 sensor (2 days ago) seeing the problem is most noticeable below 4500 rpms where the O2 is supposed to be regulating things, but that didn't work. After speaking with an MV master tech, he thinks the problem may be the main wire harness as he's seen this problem before with melted wires within the harness (doing my best to check that now). So just to reiterate the problem, the bike runs like crap below 4500 RPMs. Feels like its misfiring (sputtering, surging, popping on decel, irregular idle, shutting off). It does run like crap above 4500 but it's not as noticeable. Things I've checked and ruled out:
- Fuel filter
- Fuel lines
- Fuel injectors
- Fuel pump
- Bad fuel
- Spark plugs
- ECU
- O2 sensor
- Vacuum leak (to the best I can)
- Air leak (to the best I can)

My shadetree mechanic stills are nearly at their limit but, I really feel like it's electrical somewhere. I'll keep at it for a little while more then off to the dealer.
 

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Ok guys, I'm reopening this one. The problem is back and it gets worse the hotter the bike gets and will even shut off at times when idling or coasting (i.e. off throttle with the clutch pulled in) . Luckily for me it starts right back up lol. Anyway, I recently replaced the O2 sensor (2 days ago) seeing the problem is most noticeable below 4500 rpms where the O2 is supposed to be regulating things, but that didn't work. After speaking with an MV master tech, he thinks the problem may be the main wire harness as he's seen this problem before with melted wires within the harness (doing my best to check that now). So just to reiterate the problem, the bike runs like crap below 4500 RPMs. Feels like its misfiring (sputtering, surging, popping on decel, irregular idle, shutting off). It does run like crap above 4500 but it's not as noticeable. Things I've checked and ruled out:
- Fuel filter
- Fuel lines
- Fuel injectors
- Fuel pump
- Bad fuel
- Spark plugs
- ECU
- O2 sensor
- Vacuum leak (to the best I can)
- Air leak (to the best I can)

My shadetree mechanic stills are nearly at their limit but, I really feel like it's electrical somewhere. I'll keep at it for a little while more then off to the dealer.
I think you may have a loose earth wire at battery or ecu.

Joe
 

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Discussion Starter #25
I think you may have a loose earth wire at battery or ecu.

Joe
Definitely not at the bat but didn't check the ECU. I'll take a look at that tonight. Thx Joe!
 

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I don't want to lead you on a goose chase but what kind of mileage do you have and when did you last clean or replace your air filter?

I had poor running issues on my Brutale for a while that I tried to track down, occasional running on 3 cylinders in lower rpms, uneven or rough idle when warm, loping enough at idle to stall when cold. I swapped coils around and checked my fuel injector but since replacing my air filter (of which the original was quite dirty) the problem has gone away.

Worth a check at the least.
 

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OK, heat related sounds like electronics to me. Something feeding a signal to the ECU. Considering the partial disassembly at the paint shop I would look at connectors that may have been disconnected during that work. Add likelihood points for being in the area of the coil that you swapped. I did 14 years of computer repair in the 1980/90s, and connectors are a common source of spooky electronic problems. The coil replacement may have bumped a connector that is marginal, and caused a temporary 'fix' to the problem.

Re-seat (disconnect and reconnect) every connector in the coil area.

And, visually inspect every connector. Look for pushed pins, or wires that that look floppy. Meaning that the insulation is intact, but the wire internally is broken.
 

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***Update***
So I pulled one from my track bike and replaced the #2 coil. Now the bike is running much better.
Ok guys, I'm reopening this one. The problem is back and it gets worse the hotter the bike gets and will even shut off at times when idling or coasting
Things I've checked and ruled out:
- Fuel filter
- Fuel lines
- Fuel injectors
- Fuel pump
- Bad fuel
- Spark plugs
- ECU
- O2 sensor
- Vacuum leak (to the best I can)
- Air leak (to the best I can)
Did you also swap ALL coils + plugs + ecu at once with your track bike?
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Wow a lot of good questions and suggestions guys. Thx a bunch! I'll try to answer them all. If I missed any, my apologies.

How about where that main battery ground meets the engine block?
Last night I removed and cleaned bat terminals and all leads connected to the bat (+ and -). I also removed the engine block ground wire and cleaned its terminal and mounting point. I did notice the + wire to the starter relay was a little loose but, that did not resolve the problem. I also visually inspected the main wire harness and secondary wire harnesses for melting. Didn't notice anything. However, I did not remove the outer sheathing. If I have to swap the main wire harness (god forbid) I'll do that then.

Remove and clean both surfaces no matter if it is perceived to be a loose connection or not. A solidly grounded harness is imperative for both function and troubleshooting.
Done see above

what kind of mileage do you have and when did you last clean or replace your air filter?
9000. All filters are new as is the battery and a host of other maintenance items.

A video with the sound of the bike would be a good data point.
I'll post a short clip later today

do you have a Power Commander installed?
No. The only engine mod at this time is a Bodis slip-on. I do have a RapidBike race unit and MV race ECU waiting in the wings but at this time they are not installed.

Re-seat (disconnect and reconnect) every connector in the coil area.
And, visually inspect every connector. Look for pushed pins, or wires that that look floppy. Meaning that the insulation is intact, but the wire internally is broken.
I can't tell you how many times i've done this already lol. But i'll continue to inspect connections. :)

Did you also swap ALL coils + plugs + ecu at once with your track bike?
Never change that many things at once. There would be no way to tell what worked and what didn't. However, the plugs were replaced with new OEM plugs, gapped appropriately. Then the ECU was swapped and tested. Then each coil was tested for resistance then I replaced the odd ball. I guess it's possible the other three are bad but, as stated earlier, I don't have resistance specs on the Beru ZS378 pencil style coil and those values don't seem to be in the service manual.

What's next? Later today i'll be testing the main relay. A friend of mine is sending me his diag tool and software. Hopefully that will be here later this week. I've also sourced a second main wire harness but, I really don't want to venture down that path unless, I know for certain that's the issue or i've tried everything else first. I'm also trying to find reasonably priced coils. I have serious doubts that all 4 coils have gone bad (never had that happen before) but if I can find them cheap enough, i'll just replace them. I'm also going to empty the fuel tank and check to see if any lines popped off. This may be a waste of time as I've already swapped and tested my track bike tank and got the same results but, you never know lol.
 

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You know....it could be related to the poor fuel map you are running with that Bodis exhaust system..... You are still on the stock ECU???? That engine has to be fueling like crap with that exhaust.

Find a dyno with a exhaust gas analyzer and find out just how bad your engine is running before you waste any more time troubleshooting. Just a thought.
 

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I was going to mention the coils. What you described kept happening to me. It will just turn off. Some girl pulled up next to me and ask if it turns off to save guy like her Mercedes.. I said yes, it does. I do have a full bodis exhaust with a corsa race ecu, yet it was tunned for Pittsburgh. Maybe Miami is a tad bit different. I would say the coils aren’t making the proper connection it needs to?

I don’t know shit. I’m always asking ED for advice so go with him.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
You know....it could be related to the poor fuel map you are running with that Bodis exhaust system..... You are still on the stock ECU???? That engine has to be fueling like crap with that exhaust.

Find a dyno with a exhaust gas analyzer and find out just how bad your engine is running before you waste any more time troubleshooting. Just a thought.
I thought about that as well and actually had a dyno tune session scheduled for this Friday but cancelled it for a couple of reasons. First, one of my the ECU's I tested with is an MV Corsa Race ECU which has a map for an aftermarket exhaust. It didn't run any better when installed. Second, the previous owner had a RapidBike EVO unit installed with the current exhaust setup. I switched it to a RB Race unit which had the adaptive auto tune feature enabled. It didn't run any better either. Lastly, my tuner said that he can't tune below 4000 RPMs with the RapidBike and the stock narrowband O2. So I pulled it out to get back to square one and cancelled the dyno session. With the Cat still in place and just a slip-on installed, the fueling shouldn't be that far off from stock IMO? Not to the point where it will shut off anyway? But who knows, I'm willing to try almost anything at this point.

I was going to mention the coils. What you described kept happening to me. It will just turn off. Some girl pulled up next to me and ask if it turns off to save gas like her Mercedes.. I said yes, it does. I do have a full bodis exhaust with a corsa race ecu, yet it was tuned for Pittsburgh. Maybe Miami is a tad bit different. I would say the coils aren’t making the proper connection it needs to?
I don’t know shit. I’m always asking ED for advice so go with him.
Well the bad news is, I didn't bring the track bike with me and its 3000 mile away. The good news is my son actually paid attention when we were in the garage. He removed the coils and shipped them to me; they should be here Friday. I really hope it's the coils because I'm just about out of things to check lol.

In other news, I didn't get around to testing the Main relay yet, but I had my son ship that to me as well, just in case. That second main wire harness that I mentioned in a previous post showed up today. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it) won't work. Turns out it's for the 2014 F4 RR. I have a 2012. ECU connectors along with a bunch of other stuff is completely different. Really looking forward to that diag equipment that should be here any day now. Thx again guys, I really appreciate the help!!
 

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Derrick.......
I think your dyno guy is probably honest.......and you still have an air leak
You can't watch transitional fueling with a gas analyzer, they're too slow.....you need to use
a digital Lambda meter and data logger, they read in real time
Anybody can fuel a motor above 1/4 throttle......the problem is at 0-10% where you spend all your time

My mentors in fuel injection ......Russ Collins, who taught Honda how to inject their cars, his shop was across the
street from American Honda.......to me he was Gramps...my Goddaughter's grandfather
And Bob Behn, who makes ECUs, that write their own maps, after you answer 15 questions, we've been friends since '71
The only 2 people that I KNOW have fuel injector flow benches and know how to use them
RBRacing Lambda meters mounted on my R1150GS and Aprilia RSVR......Bob built me a 2 channel Lambda meter for the
RSVR and Harleys......totally water and vibration proof.....solid potted in epoxy :grin2:
 

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I just realized you're in Duxbury. I grew up in Stoneham. In fact, in a week or so i'll be in Haverhill for the summer :)
Are you in Haverhill with this bike now?
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Derrick.......
I think your dyno guy is probably honest.......and you still have an air leak
You can't watch transitional fueling with a gas analyzer, they're too slow.....you need to use
a digital Lambda meter and data logger, they read in real time
Man if I have an air leak I dunno where else to look. 🙁
 
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