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MV Cellist
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Discussion Starter #1
A week or two ago, there was a thread about "complaints of MV F4" where lots of people voiced what they thought could be improved on the bike we all love here @ the MVAgusta.net, instead of writing mine there I wanted to start this new thread:

What about the weight? sure, it handles great, looks stunning, makes good power, but it is heavy compared to other bikes in its class, that was a major issue when they introduced the F4 750, it was just over weight and slightly under powered compared to the GSX-R750. and in some ways, it is still the case comparing to the best inline-4 1000s out there, don't hate me for saying it, this is not my opinion, it is a fact, according to june 2005 issue of Roadracing World magazine:

2005 MV F4 1000s: 151.6 bhp @ 11,400rpm, 75.2 lbs-ft @ 9,950rpm, measured wet weight(full tank):479 pounds(217kg)*.

2005 Suzuki GSX-R1000: 159.7 bhp @ 11500rpm, 80.1 lbs-ft @ 8,500 rpm,
measured wet weight(full tank): 444 pounds (201kg).

2005 Yamaha YZF-R1: 155.3 bhp @12,750 rpm, 73.4 lbs-ft @ 10,300 rpm,
measured wet weight(full tank): 449 pounds(204kg).

Those are actual measured numbers done by the highly professional staff of the magazine.

*The MV's fuel tank capacity is 0.7 gallon larger @ 5.5 gallons.

The numbers for the ZX10R, CBR1000RR are in the same range; it would be safe to say that the MV is about 30 lbs heavier than the other inline-4 1000s.

Here are my questions:

Why so heavy? where are the heavy bits on the bike? are there a lot of over engineered parts? are the heavy parts just are "heavy designs" inherently and could not be lightened reasonably for production without raising the price $$$$$ and not using exotic materials(mag. swing arm and parts, full CF Ti. bits.) like the R1 and GSX-R1000(which comes with Ti pipes)?

Perhaps there is a MV fanatic out there with the resource and engineering background to do a investigative project? :stickpoke

Lastly, has anyone here gone to the extreme to reduce the weight of their MV F4 750 or 1000? I mean the whole 9 yeards, mag. parts, BST wheels, all CF parts , full Ti pipes and parts etc... how much money was spent and how much weight was actually reduced?
 

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don't believe everything your read

The fact that the MV put out a supposed 151 hp doesn't mean a thing. These press bikes are typically thrashed beyond belief. I was told by a very VERY reliable source that a typical MV F4 1000 puts out roughly 157hp at the rear wheel. I had my ecu "tweaked" and I have a dyno printout from the run on my bike. Can you say 161.13 REAR WHEEL hp on a dyno-jet dyno operated by a very well known tuner in his shop on his state-of-the-art dyno??? Just because certain information is printed in a #$^$^*!! magazine does not mean it's gospel. If you want to know how your machine stacks up, then test it or go have it tested. I have personal experience (from a professional standpoint) with the outright inaccuracies provided by supposed expert sources like car and bike magazines. Forget the weight crap. It's all about power-to-weight and chassis dynamics. Everyone gets so balled up in the weight this, horsepower that. It's the whole package that determines a successful bike. Across the board the MV is considered the finest handling production bike made and has already outperformed all challengers. Howz that?! :)
 

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MV Cellist
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Discussion Starter #3
I have live long enough to know not to believe everything I read. I have have 3 bikes Dynoed and custom mapped and I know not every bike is the same off the production line... these are mass production machines and will vary in performance #s... and the point about the press bike being different, we will never know if it is true from case to case, hell, to take it a step further, it all comes down to the rider, no? we might as well forget every little issue in the world with that kind of thinking, because nothing matters.

FYI, I have owned motorcycles by Yamaha, Derbi, Honda, Ducati, and will get my Senna 1000 in the summer, I love the MV and consider myself lucky to be able to own one at this point of my life, I am just raising a point that I have been curious about, which is the WEIGHT:

What about the weight? sure, it handles great, looks stunning, makes good power, but it is heavy compared to other bikes in its class
And For those of you care to entertain the thought, weight and performance #s I used were just a point of reference, I don't believe roadracing world magazine is bible monthly.

:)
 

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If think it's dumb to ignore the weight issue.... the F4 would handle even better if it weighed less....absolutely no f#ckin doubt about it.
My F4 is markedly heavier than other bikes, even my mate's 996....and it just a lard-ass compared to the Aprilia RSV-R I rode....
My bike is one of the early 750's, and I believe the new 1000 is slightly lighter ?

With that said though, when you're up and running, the F4 disguises it's extra weight well....it's only at a racetrack when you're really on it, and you're changing from full lean to full lean, that you really do notice the extra weight.
I rode a CBR600RR the same day on the same track, and it was so much easier to hussle this bike through the change in direction than the MV....
The MV requires extra work to go at the same pace.

There's no doubt a reduction in weight would improve an otherwise sensational handling package.
Reading an article with Goggi, he suggests that the MV can be brought down to within 10kg of an R1/Gixxer. He explained the extra weight is found in the swingarm and exhaust system if you compared the bikes component by component..
 

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odonata said:
Perhaps there is a MV fanatic out there with the resource and engineering background to do a investigative project? :stickpoke
Maybe they could call it Veltro. :p

I realise you are asking a serious question regards why it is heavier,but you miss the point if you are looking at spec sheets.
Anyway the headlight unit is around 6kg if I remember correctly,although there is a carbon fibre unit I saw on a Mamba. Together with the swingarm and the pipes ,plus" the motor engineered like a tractor", the words of tuner Tony Scott not mine, therein lies the answer.

Or perhaps its that extra 20kg of sheer good looks :toothless
 

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Veloce.... Despite the increase of cylinder capacity the 1000cc motor is some 5.8lbs lighter than the 750EV motor. Most savings from driveshaft, cams, ignition unit and clutch

Anyway, I used to work years ago in a bicycle shop...all the latest carbon this, Titanium that... designed to shave of 10gram here and 5gram there....most of the cravers of this stuff were probably 10 to 20 Kgs overweight, hell all the weight saving in the world was theirs for the taking...It used to make us laugh!!

Given the obvious design logic....is there much of a difference in motorcycles? Just a thought....
 

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agusta01 said:
Anyway, I used to work years ago in a bicycle shop...all the latest carbon this, Titanium that... designed to shave of 10gram here and 5gram there....most of the cravers of this stuff were probably 10 to 20 Kgs overweight, hell all the weight saving in the world was theirs for the taking...It used to make us laugh!!
...
So true! They can save themselves several thousands $$$ by just going on a better diet and/or workout a sweat when they ride!!!... although I have to admit, if it wasn't for those guys feeding the bicycle parts companies putting out the technology, the rest of us wouldn't benfit from new and improved gears... because let's face it, most guys who are fit and race, get their goodies on Pro Deals and/or buy on the web. It's the rich out of shape guys who support the shops...not the fit racers!!!

I also wonder about those spending several thousands on their motorcycle to save a couple of pounds. Being a cyclist, and knowing/feeling first hand the power it takes to push a bike/vehicle, weight does not matter much on flats anyway. Weight only matters when sprinting, going up-hill, and leaning to the limit... and a couple of pounds doesn't really solve anyone's problem...
 

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agusta01 said:
Veloce.... Despite the increase of cylinder capacity the 1000cc motor is some 5.8lbs lighter than the 750EV motor. Most savings from driveshaft, cams, ignition unit and clutch

Anyway, I used to work years ago in a bicycle shop...all the latest carbon this, Titanium that... designed to shave of 10gram here and 5gram there....most of the cravers of this stuff were probably 10 to 20 Kgs overweight, hell all the weight saving in the world was theirs for the taking...It used to make us laugh!!

Given the obvious design logic....is there much of a difference in motorcycles? Just a thought....
Oh so very true...we had the same situation in yatching when i was into that...
I think the MV is notably heavier than it's compitition, that's all.
 

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well said... the only reason I replace plastic bits with carbon is it looks great, if the carbon weighed the same or more, i'd still do it!! :)

And your spot on...the wealth desirists drive inovation, so lets keep 'em fat eh?!
 

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I wonder how much the weight installing the entire MV Agusta SP Magnesium parts would save. My bike has the entire catalog of parts, but I have no idea how much weight was saved. Next up, to reduce weight even further will be to change as many bits as I can to carbon fiber and/or titanium. I have a somewhat limited budget now so it won't be easy, but I would like to see it as light as possible. Also keep in mind the magnesium wheels make a huge difference in how the bike handles. Any issues at the track of going from lean to lean at speed can be reduced w/ some Mg wheels.
 

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One area that weight is higher than the japanese competition is the plastics. MV has generally thicker, heavier panels. A better thing IMO when Metal meets ground, from the point of repairing them anyway.
 

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MV Cellist
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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
1st thing, thank you all for your voice...

I think the MV is notably heavier than it's compitition, that's all.
That is my point, exactly... I agree with most of the points that were raised about how the weight is only a small part of the puzzle, and if it is worth the money etc, I am just looking at the weight issue from a focused, academic/design point of view, like all the engineering/design departments of Honda, Yamaha, MV, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Ducati would.

I am no expert, but I know that to make a great sports bike, an "ideal compromise" is reached for all different aspect of the bike, like ergonomics, aesthetics, power, weight, handling, $$$$, etc. Weight and everything that is related to it (distribution, strength/weight ratio, just to name a few) is certainly carefully evaluated, like in cycling and racing bicycle design.

I have been a road cyclist for the past 15 years and have logged 12,000 miles/year average in training (until 18 month ago). I have trained on bikes with frames made with Aluminum, Titanium, CF, and I know that weight alone is only a part of the picture, but I would argue that it is a huge piece of the puzzle, just try to do a climb of a mild 8% grade for 10 miles, I bet anyone will feel the difference of an extra 5 pounds, and of course where those 5 pounds are carried will make a even bigger difference, i.e. if it is evently spread out on the whole bike, or just low on the bike, in the wheels, or in your jersey pocket or as a spare tire on your waist(especially if you climb out of the saddle)... I am certainly not a weight weenie (what cyclist call the riders who are willing to sacrafice almost anything and spend $$$$$ to build a sub 13 pound bike) I choose Ultegra component over Durace for better value and added strength on certain parts(and for those die-hard Italian fans, I also use Campy components), but WEIGHT MATTERS, in racing bicycles and racing motorcycles, why else would Armstrong and Trek spend millions on improving the performance(ride/handling quality) and reducing the weight of the bikes? not to mention the helmets and other seemingly insignificant items.

I can write more about my similar experiece in other field I am familiar with like cello bows, cello cases, firearm design, japanese sword, scuba equipment, but instead of getting further sidetracked I just want to make it clear once more, I raised the issue of weight from a focused, academic/design point of view, anyone who drags other issues into the discussion are simply missing my point.

somehow I had a feeling this was going to happen... I guess I asked for it when I mentioned the Japanese bikes :stickpoke maybe I should have learned from those threads of 999 vs. F4 debate :toothless
 

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MV Cellist
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Discussion Starter #14
QUOTE:
"There's no doubt a reduction in weight would improve an otherwise sensational handling package.
Reading an article with Goggi, he suggests that the MV can be brought down to within 10kg of an R1/Gixxer. He explained the extra weight is found in the swingarm and exhaust system if you compared the bikes component by component.."


Thanks Veloce, I have also heard that single sided swingarms are quite heavy; where can I find this article?
 

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I am sure single sided swinging arms are heavier than conventional twin set ups, due to the forces imparted on them by the movement of the rear wheel they would have to be.

Does anyone know what the weight saving is on the carbon fibre fairing parts as used on the Oro compared to the standard F4 bits?

Also it's clear, as others have said before, all the Titanium and Carbon parts you might fit to save weight on your bike will be negated if you are several kilos over weight yourself! :)
 

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odonata said:
I just want to make it clear once more, I raised the issue of weight from a focused, academic/design point of view, anyone who drags other issues into the discussion are simply missing my point.

Your point is well heard. When racing at "expert level" weight does matter accelerating out of a corner, or racing to the finish line at maximum power. Weight distribution matters, to avoid wheelies everytime you open full throttle... if too little weight and too much power, then the bike is not stable either (just as in cycling). It also matters leaning the bike from side to side as well as climbing a hill. You are correct on these accounts.

However, on another note for most of us mortals, weight does not matter while travelling at steady speed and/or cruising doing the twisties. 99% of riders, no matter what they ride, do joy rides and occasional track days (if any)...for the mortal guys weight does not matter because 99% cannot handle 100% the power the bike can deliver. I don't recall myself ever saying...gosh I wish I could have shaved 0.1 seconds of my time running to the coffee shop.

I think the direction of thread encourages multiple conversations and ideas... that's not a bad thing. It is an interesting debate and good thread to start...but don't be offended if we diverge a little...for fun. :D
 

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MV Cellist
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Discussion Starter #18
I think the direction of thread encourages multiple conversations and ideas... that's not a bad thing. It is an interesting debate and good thread to start...but don't be offended if we diverge a little...for fun.
Hahaha, of course not, this thread could go in any direction, I just wanted people to know that I am perfectly aware of other factors and what my original point was, that's all, I am not offended :)

I am also aware of how the weight doesn't matter cruising on the flats unless you accelerate or climb, I learned that when I started taking my son in a trailer(50lbs total) behind my Merlin on a dedicated path... I could cruise at my normal training speed without extra effort, but getting it up there and when we reach any sort of an ascent it is a very different story...

As you said in an earlier thread :stickpoke about the F4 vs. 999, people take their bikes too seriously, I feel the same way as I read this forums sometimes... Since this is a free country or forum I just want to say, when somebody compare or mention "Ducati" or god forbbid any of the Japanese bikes the mood starts to remind me of a Harley convention (althoug it's all in good spirit), WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?! I thought sportsbike guys are way above that.

Just my 2 cents. :)
 

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The really great thing about this forum (in my view) is that on balance the comments made re the MV Vs Ducati Vs whatever debate are really well constructed (yes, there is a bit of bagging!) but you can feel the passion in peoples choice of machine...I mean you don't spend this amount of cash on a bike without research, comparrisons and observations.

Get on one of those other forums and mention a competitors machine and its not fun at all, as the responses are personal, unfound and based mostly on an unqualified bias.

Already on this forum there are members who I know just by their posts are knowedgable, experienced and balanced in reply. So I lookforward to their input.

It goes from strength to strength!!
 
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