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Discussion Starter #1
Hey Fellas,

Ok, we know that these heads are failing and we thought we had skirted by this issue until recently when a valve in our freshly rebuilt head failed after only 50 miles or so of track riding / practice. Yes, we use our machines exclusively for racing but the reports are coming to me from multiple resources both track and street alike.

I have heard that the newer heads may have changed a couple of things to make them more reliable but until I have more intel on that I am going forward with our own plans. Our engines are 2013 MY so at least the 2012-2013 MY's are affected and quite possibly the 2014-2015 MY's too but as I said, I need more intel.

There have been a variety of reports of failures.
Top of the valve being nipped off by the stock keepers
Valve spring snapping off completely.
Or in our case, the valve snapping off at the bottom.

Any of these failure modes will lead to the same destruction:
1) Valve or valves destroyed (exhaust and/or intake)
2) Head being damaged itself
3) Piston destroyed
4) rod bent
5) cylinder scored
6) Your heart broken
7) Your wallet emptied

We race these things so its not unheard of for us teams to drop engines but I can tell you that this was the first time since we started running 600cc level machines that we have lost an engine. And that's across multiple brands and multiple examples of those brands.

Are we bitter?
Of course not, we look at these things as opportunities and not failures. It takes time and expertise to sort machines out and we have plans to do just that.

The team had already collected a lot of data on these failures so it was no surprise that our turn would come along and it did. Now we are working alongside some industry heavyweights to systematically review every aspect of the head design when compared to other designs and techniques to implement everything we can into one new design that will hopefully put an end to this.

There isn't anything in the F3 heads that are strange or unknown. Its a collection of parts from known vendors in the industry. Like a music group, it takes all members to work harmoniously together to create great music. Engines are the same way and so it is not difficult with all of the experience out there to recognize some common issues that need to be corrected. We have already been able to identify a few and with our partners in this project, we hope to overcome most, if not all of them.

Can the head fail again?
Sure it can but we will be running these engines at over 15,000 RPM on a regular basis and if our motors can withstand that punishment, your street or trackday motors should be in very good shape with the upgrades.

We will divulge more as we approach the first testings of the modifications to the original design. If you already have a failed head, this should be very interesting to you and if you don't have a failed head and don't want one, this should be VERY interesting to you. The cost associated with rebuilding the head to a new spec vs rebuilding the smashed to hell head and the bottom end components will make this very attractive.

So let's use this thread to keep everyone informed and when the new design is ready, we will let you all know. It will be as little as replacing and / or modifying the head for longevity right up to full port and polish design work to get even more HP from your engine.

Here are a couple of photos to make you cringe. This is how our head and piston looked after the valve snapped off.



 

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Please sell it as a kit, would be nice not to have to send the head half way across the world and back.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Subscribed.

Please sell it as a kit, would be nice not to have to send the head half way across the world and back.
Unfortunately that will not be possible.

There is precision measurement and machining involved to pull this off.

The best we could do might be an exchange program.
Doesn't help with shipping but would get a rebuilt head on its way back to you asap.

The work is slow due to the various parts that either need to be tracked down or manufactured. We are hoping to have a head completed and in testing on the track around the beginning to middle of February.

Have you already suffered a failure or are you looking at this as preventative?
 

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Unfortunately that will not be possible.

There is precision measurement and machining involved to pull this off.

The best we could do might be an exchange program.
Doesn't help with shipping but would get a rebuilt head on its way back to you asap.

The work is slow due to the various parts that either need to be tracked down or manufactured. We are hoping to have a head completed and in testing on the track around the beginning to middle of February.

Have you already suffered a failure or are you looking at this as preventative?
Preventative.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Can't say as I blame you.
The costs associated with repairing the engine after a valve failure are really scary, especially when you add in the labor to do the work!

On top of the parts that need to be replaced, there is also scanning, welding up, then machining the head (if it's salvageable - they usually are). Then the cylinders are nickasil lined so that has to be removed, then the scoring needs to be welded up and repaired and then cylinder has to be re-plated.

Bearings need to be checked and replaced since you have the motor competely torn down and it makes sense, rod bolts need to be replaced, cams need to be checked for damage and the list just goes on and on.

The costs for all of these parts and work is absolutely frightening and then you add in all the labor for a shop that fully understands how to build a MV Agusta F3 engine ........

I already priced out a lot of these parts to get the motor back together and it is substantial. Just the price of a piston or rod bolts will make you gasp.

So I have no intention of putting this back together in its stock form. I was even offered a spare, used motor for way less than it would cost me to do this but turned it down because I would end up in the same position with the same possible failure looming.
 

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Just amazing how similar your failure is to mine. Valve broke in the same exact spot. Keep me updated I need a rebuild.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
And Away We Go!!

To both of you that report the same failure, was it the middle cylinder?

There is a lot of investigation that needs to be done here so the more data we have to work from the better.

It would also be good to know what the riding condition was when the valve let go.
Are you street or track guys?
Were you slammin' it or was this general street riding
Did it let go on accel or decel?

Any aftermarket electronics on the bike?
Did you change anything on the bike without putting it on the dyno afterwards?

Again, the more data we can collect, the tighter the investigation becomes.

I told you all that this is real.
These guys are into major repairs to get this fixed - sorry guys.

Bernie
 

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To both of you that report the same failure, was it the middle cylinder?

There is a lot of investigation that needs to be done here so the more data we have to work from the better.

It would also be good to know what the riding condition was when the valve let go.
Are you street or track guys?
Were you slammin' it or was this general street riding
Did it let go on accel or decel?

Any aftermarket electronics on the bike?
Did you change anything on the bike without putting it on the dyno afterwards?

Again, the more data we can collect, the tighter the investigation becomes.

I told you all that this is real.
These guys are into major repairs to get this fixed - sorry guys.

Bernie
Mine was inlet on cylinder 1, looks like your failure with minimal piston damage valve head snapped from stem and imbeded in the port. When I finally removed the valve from the port I was surprised to find no damage to the valve seat.
The failure happend during a racing start, must of happened at around 12000rpm in first gear. I was running bazzaz unit with stock motor kicking out 124rwhp with baffle.
Also had 2no. snapped inlet valve springs, one on the failed valve.
The bike up to this year was a road and track day bike about 50/50 split with 15500 miles on the clock.

Hope this is enough info.
John
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Mine was inlet on cylinder 1, looks like your failure with minimal piston damage valve head snapped from stem and imbeded in the port. When I finally removed the valve from the port I was surprised to find no damage to the valve seat.
The failure happend during a racing start, must of happened at around 12000rpm in first gear. I was running bazzaz unit with stock motor kicking out 124rwhp with baffle.
Also had 2no. snapped inlet valve springs, one on the failed valve.
The bike up to this year was a road and track day bike about 50/50 split with 15500 miles on the clock.

Hope this is enough info.
John
Every little bit helps.
To clarify, you had 2 inlet valve springs fail at the same time?
 

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Mine was inlet on cylinder 1, looks like your failure with minimal piston damage valve head snapped from stem and imbeded in the port. When I finally removed the valve from the port I was surprised to find no damage to the valve seat.
The failure happend during a racing start, must of happened at around 12000rpm in first gear. I was running bazzaz unit with stock motor kicking out 124rwhp with baffle.
Also had 2no. snapped inlet valve springs, one on the failed valve.
The bike up to this year was a road and track day bike about 50/50 split with 15500 miles on the clock.

Hope this is enough info.
John
Every little bit helps.
To clarify, you had 2 inlet valve springs fail at the same time?
Yes, two failed inlet valve springs discovered at the time, can't be certain they failed at the same time. But I did feel two moments of power loss down the strait the previous race weekend. Maybe connected to the spring failure maybe not. But never felt it before or since.
 

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To both of you that report the same failure, was it the middle cylinder?

There is a lot of investigation that needs to be done here so the more data we have to work from the better.

It would also be good to know what the riding condition was when the valve let go.
Are you street or track guys?
Were you slammin' it or was this general street riding
Did it let go on accel or decel?

Any aftermarket electronics on the bike?
Did you change anything on the bike without putting it on the dyno afterwards?

Again, the more data we can collect, the tighter the investigation becomes.

I told you all that this is real.
These guys are into major repairs to get this fixed - sorry guys.

Bernie
Mine was the middle cylinder #2. I have a mixture of track and canyon riding with rigorous maintenance schedules; almost paranoid schedules. Failed on a street canyon riding hard. Clearances inspected 1000 miles before failure and all were well within spec. I have video on IG. Add me Patrick_kolby video posted on Aug 2nd 2016
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Mine was the middle cylinder #2. I have a mixture of track and canyon riding with rigorous maintenance schedules; almost paranoid schedules. Failed on a street canyon riding hard. Clearances inspected 1000 miles before failure and all were well within spec. I have video on IG. Add me Patrick_kolby video posted on Aug 2nd 2016
Thanks for that!

Guys, please reach out to anyone you can that has suffered a failure in the valve train, even if they have already had the engine repaired or replaced, the data is critical for focusing in on the real problems.

So far the primary culprits are:

1) Valve spring failure
2) Valve failure at the base
3) There have been reports of the top of the valve being nipped off by the keepers but no data reported here as of yet.

One of our heads goes under the knife next week.
The other is stock and undamaged so we are going to hold off on doing anything to that one until we feel the issues have been resolved.

There will some changes made to the head right out of the gate as we are implementing some proven techniques from some really experienced engine builders. The rest we will tackle one at a time.

Stay Tuned.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I would also like to add a general question for better understanding.

What is the highest temp readout you guys have all been witnessing on the dash in bars? This is for anyone who rides a F3 675 or 800, not specifically racers or track day guys.

Would like to get a handle on the heat cycles these engines see.
If you had a high temp reading on the dash or a warning at any point while riding, let us know.

And if you could provide that with the temp outside that day, it would be even more helpful. Approximately on course.
 

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My f3 800 had the head of the valve snap off on the middle cylinder inlet.
Race/track bike only and went on deceleration.
It destroyed the head and piston!
No warning prior to shitting itself.
Outside temp approx 25° C
 
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