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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)


Hello,

I was hoping you guys can help me with a possible battery warranty issue. Almost a year ago today, I purchased an EarthX lithium battery for my 2008 Brutale 910S. I read great reviews about the battery and the best part was you could use a Battery Tender to charge it. No proprietary chargers needed because it had a "smart" chip that monitored the way it was getting current to charge. I did a quick Google search and found out the company was out of stock for the battery I needed. I was able to find a dealer on Ebay that had the battery in stock Model ETX12B. Listed at the time to also fit Honda CBR. The application also stated is was a direct replacement for Yuasa YTZ10S. This was the battery the bike came with from the factory and is even pictured in the shop manual.

Fast forward to this weekend. I accidentally left my iPhone charger on for a few days and along with my Scorpio alarm drained the battery to about 8 volts and bike wouldn't start. I charged it for a few hours and she fired right up. However, the battery is not holding a full charge. Did a test on all electrical components and found no faults. Assuming it is the battery and looked into possible warranty issue.

Here is the best part. Kathy the Global sales director was very nice and returned my inquiries quickly. Turns out according to their application charts I bought the incorrect battery and my warranty is void. These batteries come with a two year warranty. According to their current application chart I should have bought:

ETX18F BATTERY: 340 Pulse Crank Amps $219.00
230 CCA

The battery I was sold is a:

ETX12B: 220 Pulse Crank Amps $169.00
135 CCA


(http://earthxmotorsports.com/shop/etx12b/) MV Agusta Brutale/F4 are listed towards the bottom of the page.

On their site MV AGUSTA F4/Brutale both models are listed a compatible.

The YUASA YTZ10S specs I found say it has 190 CCA. I couldn't find pulse CCA spec for the Yuasa.

Can anyone chime in and verify the ETX12B will be adequate for my bike or do I really need the more powerful battery? Obviously getting the more powerful (and expensive) battery is ideal but I'm looking at loosing here because I'm stuck with a possibly bad battery not suited for my bike.

I can see how a year ago, the application guides may have not been correct because I can still find Google ads showing Either EarthX batteries will work.

Thanks
 

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As I understand it, you bought a 12 cell, more than adequate for the Brutale, no way will the 18 cell even fit.
The fact that you let the voltage drop to below 9V is what killed it, Li batteries do not recover from that very often.
 

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Sorry to say, but your deep discharging of the battery caused the damage, not a defect.
You can do the same thing with a lead acid battery (like the Yuasa) although they can sometimes be recovered if recharged properly soon after discharge.....not so the high tech Li battery.
 

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So they claim their battery has a smart chip, yet that chip wasn't smart enough to protect the pack from deep discharge? Spend your money elsewhere. They sure as hell don't deserve it.

I'm running a 12 cell lithium pack on my bike, it is way more than enough. I also have a heavy duty quick disconnect installed and made a habit of disconnecting the pack after every ride.
 

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I purchased the 18cell EarthX a few weeks ago, and have no problems thus far, but I agree with M5Zealot. EarthX advertises that their batteries have a BMS (Battery Management System) incorporated into the pack, which protects from over charge, overvoltage and under voltage (excessive drain). So technically this should not have happened. The whole reason that I purchased myself was because of the built in BMS.

Excessive current draw (ie, battery to small for application) is a tough one. Batteries can short out if the design does not meet the load. In a standard battery, plates flex / bend under load and can short out. In a BMS protected battery, if load exceeds the BMS design current, the BMS can fail, leaving the battery unprotected, or just dead, because the failed BMS can electrically disconnect the cells from the battery terminals.

In any case, I design electronic devices for a living, and anyone who tells you that ANY lithium type battery can be charged without a proper charger / BMS circuit is either plain lying or does not understand the topic well enough to make such claims. Don't get me wrong, charging a lithium (Ion / Iron / etc) battery typically can be done without the proper charger / BMS if all the stars align, ie. your alternator plays nicely, and you are willing to risk failure, fire, explosion, etc, but all of the Lithium chemistry types require over / under voltage protection to have a long service life. Should your bikes charging system exceed the maximum charging voltage (15V or so), the battery cells can / will fail. If you discharge beyond a certian minimum voltage, once again, the battery can / will fail. I am not a battery expert by any means, but I have read enough on the topic for practical applications with my work to know what should / should not be done. Wiring a bunch of cells into a pack, and putting it in your bike without the right charger / protection will eventually lead to some type of failure, the severity will only be know once it occurs. In my oppinion EarthX is the only company out there doing it "right".

However, I did read somewhere that EarthX had some issues with early models of battery which had similar issues. I would contact them directly and be nice, but firm, and show them their own site indicating compatibility. Use their own data against them, but be really nice doing so. A quick screen shot of their website saved to your computer may not be a bad idea, as some companies, when presented with errors on their site, quickly change the site, to avoid having to cough up compensation or a warranty claim. Backup is always a good idea.

I am pretty sure that they are a two person shop (small company), so let them know that you have an entire MVAgusta.net forum watching the outcome of this issue. It may persuade them to be a little more sympathetic to your cause when it can severely hamper sales to an entire bike community.

Just my 2cents worth.
 

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Donsy,

Where have you been finding the other BMS equipped batteries? I searched high and low before settling on the EarthX. So far so good with it, and yes it fit (ETX18F) with no issue into my 05-F4. The battery is every so slightly smaller than the original Yausa, and the difference is made up with some included foam pads.

I am not fond of the foam pads and adapters that change the terminals from center mount, to side mount for the MV, but they currently do the job. I may modify things a bit in terms of proper machined or 3d printed spacer plate to ensure perfect battery placement, and I will likey modify the terminal adapters so that they are well insualted, as opposed to bare brass. Likely will dip them in plastisol or similar delectric dip coating material.

Maybe would should start a thread on the different vendors that have compatible MV batteries. I found everything from $30 Yausa clones all the way to the $200+ LiFE batteries, but very little info is out there...

I must admit, the EarthX is amazingly lightweight. Bikes starts far better (or at least as good as a brand new Lead Acid), and seems to hold the charge very well. Only time will tell I guess.
 

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I don't even see how they are doing a 18 cell pack and maintaining proper voltage.

Sizes should be as follows for a 4 cell in series setup

4S2P = 8 cell
4S3P = 12 cell
4S4P = 16 cell

Where are they fitting the extra 2 cells?
 

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My Bad also.

Some of the other battery manufacturers use the 8-12-16 as indication of the amount cell's, sorry about that Joe.

Anyway, I have a little 8cell Shorai, a big 12cell Ballistic, both looked after by the Ballistic specific charger.
Then I have a RACING brand BMS 8cell, more expensive than the other two, but a great little battery, seems to be quite a bit more capable than the 8cell Shorai.:)
 

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I use a 12 cell A123 Systems pack off of ebay. No special care on charging. Bike takes care of that when I ride. But I do disconnect the battery when I'm done with my ride. I got this pack 2 years ago and I haven't charged it once. The bike sat in the garage untouched for a little over a year and the pack still wasn't dead.

Here is what I use. Comes with the heavy dusty quick disconnect lead. http://www.ebay.com/itm/4s3p-A123-motorcycle-battery-quick-connector-13-2v6-9ah-/200869600284?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item2ec4c2dc1c
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for all the replies guys. Sorry to get back to you so late. EarthX replaced my battery with the correct and more expensive battery! Sent it to me 2nd day air and I'm sending them the old one. It has to be defective because they claim their batteries are smart enough to not let them discharge all the way to 9 volts etc. I'm posting a video review because I was impressed with their customer service.

PS. They were giving me a hard time but after I told them I was the treasurer of the local Desmo Club and have a YOutube channel they changed their tune. (I may have suggested posting a negative review for my experience.)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I purchased the 18cell EarthX a few weeks ago, and have no problems thus far, but I agree with M5Zealot. EarthX advertises that their batteries have a BMS (Battery Management System) incorporated into the pack, which protects from over charge, overvoltage and under voltage (excessive drain). So technically this should not have happened. The whole reason that I purchased myself was because of the built in BMS.

Excessive current draw (ie, battery to small for application) is a tough one. Batteries can short out if the design does not meet the load. In a standard battery, plates flex / bend under load and can short out. In a BMS protected battery, if load exceeds the BMS design current, the BMS can fail, leaving the battery unprotected, or just dead, because the failed BMS can electrically disconnect the cells from the battery terminals.

In any case, I design electronic devices for a living, and anyone who tells you that ANY lithium type battery can be charged without a proper charger / BMS circuit is either plain lying or does not understand the topic well enough to make such claims. Don't get me wrong, charging a lithium (Ion / Iron / etc) battery typically can be done without the proper charger / BMS if all the stars align, ie. your alternator plays nicely, and you are willing to risk failure, fire, explosion, etc, but all of the Lithium chemistry types require over / under voltage protection to have a long service life. Should your bikes charging system exceed the maximum charging voltage (15V or so), the battery cells can / will fail. If you discharge beyond a certian minimum voltage, once again, the battery can / will fail. I am not a battery expert by any means, but I have read enough on the topic for practical applications with my work to know what should / should not be done. Wiring a bunch of cells into a pack, and putting it in your bike without the right charger / protection will eventually lead to some type of failure, the severity will only be know once it occurs. In my oppinion EarthX is the only company out there doing it "right".

However, I did read somewhere that EarthX had some issues with early models of battery which had similar issues. I would contact them directly and be nice, but firm, and show them their own site indicating compatibility. Use their own data against them, but be really nice doing so. A quick screen shot of their website saved to your computer may not be a bad idea, as some companies, when presented with errors on their site, quickly change the site, to avoid having to cough up compensation or a warranty claim. Backup is always a good idea.

I am pretty sure that they are a two person shop (small company), so let them know that you have an entire MVAgusta.net forum watching the outcome of this issue. It may persuade them to be a little more sympathetic to your cause when it can severely hamper sales to an entire bike community.

Just my 2cents worth.
Took your advise and got positive results.:yo:
 

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Took your advise and got positive results.:yo:
It always helps to take your concerns to the manufacturer with an open mind and a calm demeanor. Glad to hear this..
 

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Took your advise and got positive results.:yo:
Glad that I could be of help.

As mentioned, I design electronic circuits / products for a living, and typically, if a customer is nice, AND can prove me wrong (Trust me, I am wrong on occasion), OR the product actually has an issue, either inside our outside of warranty, I cover it. It is just good business.

But those who scream, whine and slander don't get very far with me, or any other manufacturer.

There is always the chance that the customer did in fact break your product (intentional or not), but you have to manage risk in these cases. Risk comes in many shapes and forms, but if your product is is of good quality, and you price it properly, you should have the margins / profits available to back your products reputation with a good warranty.

It has been my experience, that most manufacturers do want to put out a good product. It is in their best interest, as bad products don't have a very long sales life these days. Social media / internet makes for a simple method of destroying a products chances of success if it does not perform as advertised.

But in any case, I am happy that you are happy with the end result in dealing with EarthX. I am sure many members in the forum have been watching the thread on this. At $200+ for a battery, it should last.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Glad that I could be of help.

As mentioned, I design electronic circuits / products for a living, and typically, if a customer is nice, AND can prove me wrong (Trust me, I am wrong on occasion), OR the product actually has an issue, either inside our outside of warranty, I cover it. It is just good business.

But those who scream, whine and slander don't get very far with me, or any other manufacturer.

There is always the chance that the customer did in fact break your product (intentional or not), but you have to manage risk in these cases. Risk comes in many shapes and forms, but if your product is is of good quality, and you price it properly, you should have the margins / profits available to back your products reputation with a good warranty.

It has been my experience, that most manufacturers do want to put out a good product. It is in their best interest, as bad products don't have a very long sales life these days. Social media / internet makes for a simple method of destroying a products chances of success if it does not perform as advertised.

But in any case, I am happy that you are happy with the end result in dealing with EarthX. I am sure many members in the forum have been watching the thread on this. At $200+ for a battery, it should last.
Thanks again. I can't say that I screamed or slandered but I did state my displeasure. I work with angry customers all day and when I'm on the other side I guess I have become like them in a way.

I was nice and sweet for many replies but decided to "not be nice" when I knew they had an error in their applications. They admitted the error and when you go on their site, you can see only one battery is listed for MV Agustas instead of two. So I guess I did save them some future heartache and my new correct battery was fair compensation.
 
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