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Discussion Starter #1
I'm familiar with counter steering and body steering (well, at least I think I am) but notice something in my riding. My commute is through residential canyons with a speed limit of mostly 30mph and there are a few 10 mph decreasing radius turns. I usually cruise around 40mph.

The most effective and comfortable steering method for me is to simple push on the handle bars BUT keeping my body upright (body's at a 90 degree angle to the ground). This goes back to the MSF safety class I took years ago.

However, if I push the handle bars, add some weight to the pegs, and give some body lean, the input seems way too much and I end up throwing off my line and my cornering speed is much lower than the simple push on the handle bars. The bikes doesn't seem to respond to well to this style on those roads.

If I remain at a 90 degree angel and push the bars, I'm actually working against the bike right? Also, this is street riding so I'm not trying to get a knee down or anything and I'm not looking to go double the speed limit on a residential canyon. I'm just a little confused on what works for me and why it works.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Oh, on bikes like the R1, I found body steering work better than the simple push on the handlebars. But on the 999 and MV, pushing the bars works better or feels more comfortable to me than body steering. Could it be because the MV/999 places more weight on the handle bars which makes handle bar inputs more effective?

Also, this gives you an idea of the streets I'm riding on:


slightly distorted because of the windscreen


 

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Hmm. If you want long, convoluted discussion and argument, that you might be able to cherry pick, I'd suggest you post this question in the Survival Skills forum of http://www.visordown.com

There are a number of experienced riders and instructors in this sector of the forum who can probably help.... a lot. :blah:

I've had lessons with 3 of the resident instructors and they love questions like this to get their teeth into, so if you get no joy here, I recommend you try there. :smoking:
 

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I'll leave the technical answer to your question to others Allan, but I find the F4 seems to think itself around the bends, rider input is quite minimal IMO. The only other road bikes that have this ability that I have owned in over 30 years of riding now are the Ducati 916 family and fuel in the frame Buells. I have a few friends who are Ducati enthusiasts and those who have riden my F4's have said they think the Agusta is just as good if not better than their own bikes but that they prefer the big Twins motor, which is fair comment in my eyes. :)
 

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i think the answer to these questions are hard to come by. there are "techniques" that one could consider right/wrong, but every rider has their own way as to which feels most comfortable. i quickly found that the faster the MV is going the better it handles, rides, feels, etc. i have yet to find cornering a chore, but whenever i lean on the tank, almost in full tuck, i feel the most in tune with the bike. it's then that i am reminded that it is a race machine and not a goldwing. i think there are natural, intuitive ways to do alot of things. start there and improve upon...assuming you are not a total dork on a bike. :nerd:
 

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IMHO, the F4 responds great to bar inputs. It really wants you to counter-steer it. At the track, if I'm looking for a bit more lean angle I just push on the bar on the inside.

On an aside, I've found the F4 does really well with trail braking. At Fontana this weekend, I was on the binders DEEP into the corners, especially turn 12, a sharp right-hander after a straight. I've read that some guys think the F4 isn't a good trail braking bike. That hasn't been my experience at all. I can just hold onto those brakes way into the corner. Even past the apex if I'm sloppy! The bike will stay on the line, not try to stand up or understeer.

Alex
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Can someone refresh my memory. In the MSF class, did they say when making a slow turn like 5-10 mph (parking lot), you countersteer the bike while remaining upright. Does the body act as a counter balance?
 

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altoon said:
I've read that some guys think the F4 isn't a good trail braking bike. That hasn't been my experience at all...The bike will stay on the line, not try to stand up or understeer
That is one nice benefit I'll begrudge the /70 over the /65. Alex you should spoon a set of 60's onto the front and see what you think about trail braking :ahhh: :laughing: I probably have some old H2's around somewhere if you want to give it a go HAHA.
 

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Allan Gibbs said:
Can someone refresh my memory. In the MSF class, did they say when making a slow turn like 5-10 mph (parking lot), you countersteer the bike while remaining upright. Does the body act as a counter balance?
Does counter steering work @ 5mph? I actually turn the bars left to go left at that speed. Gyroscopic precession is so minimal at that speed that counter steering doens't work.

Alex
 

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JamesC said:
That is one nice benefit I'll begrudge the /70 over the /65. Alex you should spoon a set of 60's onto the front and see what you think about trail braking :ahhh: :laughing: I probably have some old H2's around somewhere if you want to give it a go HAHA.
Looks like I'll be sticking with the 70's!
Besides, your options for race tires is pretty limited in the 65's.

I wonder what the bike would do with a 16.5 rim though? You know of anyone who's tried that? BTW, does anything other than slicks come in a 16.5?

Alex
 

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Allan Gibbs said:
Can someone refresh my memory. In the MSF class, did they say when making a slow turn like 5-10 mph (parking lot), you countersteer the bike while remaining upright. Does the body act as a counter balance?

In low, tight turns like a U-Turn in a parking lot, use a counterweight technique by leaing your upper body towards the outside of the turn. Turn your head and look where you want to go. Turn the handlebars more in the direction you want to go for tighter turns.

Counter steering does not work at slow speeds.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
awiner said:
In low, tight turns like a U-Turn in a parking lot, use a counterweight technique by leaing your upper body towards the outside of the turn. Turn your head and look where you want to go. Turn the handlebars more in the direction you want to go for tighter turns.

Counter steering does not work at slow speeds.
That's right! Sorry about that. The the speed's too low for counter steering but counterweight was the word/technique I was looking for.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Okay. During the ride home, I was think of how to make this a bit clearer.


I. So, this is the countersteering technique I find more effective than just leaning.

1) Road banks to the right. I push on the right handle bar which causes the front wheel to go the left (counter steering) then,

2) The MV then leans to the right; but

3) I'm staying straight.

During the ride home, I was having a hard time pushing on the right handle bar and leaning to the right as well. The natural tendency is for me to stay straight.

II. My normal riding technique (with pictures)
Most of the time, I just lean the MV into turns. But today I read my tires and it looks like I'm riding the rears to the edges but not giving enough input to the front tires. Here' the pictures. The first is the front tire and the second it the rear.
 

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your tires look like that mostly because the 'attitude' of the bike has a rear weight bias set up from the factory for stability at speed [it can also be tire pressures] - but most likely you need to raise the rear ride height about three mm on the nut, then you will get the full use of the front tire or drop the front forks 5mm. This ofcourse will also quicken the steering. Tire profiles will also change the 'attitude' of the bike. I hope this is the answer you are looking for - it wll work but you may or may not like the changes.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
quacker998 said:
your tires look like that mostly because the 'attitude' of the bike has a rear weight bias set up from the factory for stability at speed [it can also be tire pressures] - but most likely you need to raise the rear ride height about three mm on the nut, then you will get the full use of the front tire or drop the front forks 5mm. This ofcourse will also quicken the steering. Tire profiles will also change the 'attitude' of the bike. I hope this is the answer you are looking for - it wll work but you may or may not like the changes.
Thank you. You raise another issue. Actually, I think my bike's attitude has also further been adjust because I'm short. Both the 999 and the MV had a feeling of the rear being very low to accomodate me. I'm not sure if the front can be lowered any further. I can probably bring the rear height up a few milimeter but I'll scarifice my safty margins at lower speeds.
 

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Allan, Counter steering, that is, a quick nudge (either push or pull) is used to 'drop' the bike into a corner, its a one off action that combined with the gyroscopic effect of the wheel which will then track at that lean angle...ie the greater the countersteer or nudge the greater the lean angle, once at this point the bike will track on a theoretical constant radius assuming body positioning is appropraite or until the bike receives another rider input (say some more counter steer if the corner is a decreasing radius and you did not read it)
 

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Allan Gibbs said:
Okay. During the ride home, I was think of how to make this a bit clearer.
Most of the time, I just lean the MV into turns. But today I read my tires and it looks like I'm riding the rears to the edges but not giving enough input to the front tires. Here' the pictures. The first is the front tire and the second it the rear.
Alan, whether you know it or not to make the bike turn at any real speed you must Counter steer, whether you know you are doing it or not you have to and are doing it, even on a push bike :)


One of the tricks that I read a race school used to do (California race school) was they had a bike with the normal set of bars, and another set attached to the fairing alone, apparantly for people who used to reckon they just lent the bike into turns, they used to stick them on this bike, no one ever managed to get the bike to turn with with lean alone, it just went straight apparantly:jsm:

Most sets of tyres wear the rear closer to the edge than the front, Michelin Powers are closer than most to being the same wear (lean) front and rear, Diablo's from memory seemed to wear the rear (lean) much more than the front. :)

Having said that I find the MV virtually wears out the front and rear at the same time, and you certainly would not wear out 2 rears for 1 front as most other bikes do, these days I always change them as a pair, just changing the rear tends to make the front dart all over the place on overbanding and white lines, and IMHO spoils a very good bike and my enjoyment, there's nothing quite like the feel of a new pair of tyres......except :humpother :naughty:
 

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quacker998 said:
your tires look like that mostly because the 'attitude' of the bike has a rear weight bias set up from the factory for stability at speed [it can also be tire pressures] - but most likely you need to raise the rear ride height about three mm on the nut, then you will get the full use of the front tire or drop the front forks 5mm. This ofcourse will also quicken the steering. Tire profiles will also change the 'attitude' of the bike. I hope this is the answer you are looking for - it wll work but you may or may not like the changes.
I dropped my last 1000's forks through about 7mm, made the bike awesome :naughty: It stopped it wanting to stand upright if you trail braked, or had to brake in the corner, a real good mod for me and my riding style anyway :)
 

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Allan Gibbs said:
II. My normal riding technique
Most of the time, I just lean the MV into turns.

Leaning is countersteering, too. It also initiates the deflection of the front wheel, just not as effectively as pushing the bars. That's why you can "get away" with just leaning on wider, slower turns. Get into the twisties or ride at higher speeds and you've got to find a more efficient way to initiate the deflection of the front wheel. That's why they put the handlebars on. ;)
 
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