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Discussion Starter #1
Had PClll installed with the goal of improving throttle response. Improvement is minimal. Better on the highway but not much at lower rpm's. Was present for the mapping of a previous bike a few years ago. Readings were taken at 500rpm increments through the rpm range in each gear. Took quite awhile. Major improvement. This time he (not the same facility) shifted through the gears then hit the rev limiter in high gear. Maybe took 10 minutes.Graph showed little change, mostly just torque. Hp was only 118 before and after. Am I correct in thinking I didn't get a custom map for MY bike?
 

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Sounds like they only did a dyno run, and didn't "tune" the map on the PCIII - Usually it takes several runs to dial the map in.
 

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King of the Sink
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Now this might sound silly, but you may have run foul of what happened to me. I was just lucky that the dyno wizard noticed what was happening. With the PC-III, there is a green wire with a white stripe, and a white wire with a green stripe - and of course they are VERY similar. My dealer installed it incorrectly, reversing the wires. The dyno guy reversed them and, voila, everything worked and I got a great custom map!
 

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Oh Boy.
(coffee is kicking in)

Banging through the gears (all gear runs) is absoluely useless on a Fuel injected bike. It was usefull on carbed bikes in the old days before O2 sensors and was a crude way to tune different carb setups.

Today, there are 2 ways to tune a FI bike on a dyno: manually or with "Tuning Link"

Manually takes many hours of "pulls" in each throttle position to correct the airfuel ratio. The operator does a pull, looks at the results, changes the power commander, does another pull to see if it is better. This can take many, many pulls at each throttle position to get somewhat good. Most of the day is needed.
Also the dyno MUST have an eddy current brake to correctly map the lower throttle positions. (more later)

Tuning Link is software that helps map a bike. The operator does a pull at say 100% throttle, the tuning link software changes the PC and you check it with another pull. It usually takes 2-3 pulls at each throttle position to get it perfect.

Also, maximizing map resolution to every 250 tuning increments makes for a finer tune. (but takes much longer if mapping manually)

The above procedure is called "roll on mapping" and is done in different gears at the higher throttle positions. (20-100% throttle positions)

"steady state mapping" is done at lower throttle positions for a really fine tune.
the Dyno brake holds a specific rpm, (must have a braking system on the dyno) the software (or operator) changes the PC and checks for the correct a/f ratio. This can take forever if done manually but Tuning lonk automates the process and goes much faster and is more accurate.

A power commander has hundreds of tuning spots and can take most of the day to do correctly manually, but Tuning link can do a better job in an hour or so if the operator knows what he is doing.

Mapping out the throttle abruptness that many MV's have is a little trickier. It involves mapping the 0% and 2% column of the PC. Most operators don't do this.

You run the bike, get off the gas like on the street, you then roll back on the gas like you are exiting a corner. Watching the O2 sensor you can see if a lean or rich condition exists when rolling back on the gas (usually lean) This causes the injectors to go from basically off (flowing no gas) to flowing alot of gas causing the "lurch"

If you richen the 0% colum you lessen this lurching effect for a smoother transition from off gas to on gas.

It is trial and error on each bike and takes some time.

When going to a dyno, ask for before and after runs and make sure they give you the airfuel ratio printout on each printout!

Also, be warned that the first run is usually the weakest so if you see a printout with run 001 against run 003, you will most likely see a gain but with no tuning.
Ask for 3 before runs then the best run after mapping to get a good comparison.

Correction factors: Different countries use differnt correction factors and they all read different.
The most common is SAE. The Society of Automotive Engineers came up with a correction factor that taked out the effects of weather conditions. A bike will make more HP at sea level on a cool crisp day as compared to a bike at high elevation on a hot humid day. SAE correction factor adds or subtracts HP to make them both comparible.
STD correction factor is not widely used and usually reads much higher than SAE.
Uncorrected reads high on cool days at sea level but reads low on a hot humid day.
DIN is used in Europe and usually reads a little higher than SAE.

Also, look at your printout for the run conditions. You will usually see Temp, Humidiy and Barometer. If any of these are reading off, it will alter the numbers (High temp or barometer)

I think that should do, coffee is wearing off.......
 

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airfuel you are awesome! That is like poetry.......... he he! I'll be getting my arrow eprom soon to go with the midpipe and may need some advice. Any chance of beautiful words like that for me?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I am truly enlightened!!!!! AIRFUEL, you are now a god among men in my world. Seriously though, thank you so much for answering the questions I would have asked after reading a less detailed explanation. The tuner offered discounted price on PC and custom map for free in exchange for the stock map for his files. There were problems with installation (reverse polarity, only reading half the rpm's)which left little time in the work day. I suspect he didn't honor his word on mapping cause he lost too much time on installation. I didn't get screwed but he got what he wanted and I did not.
 

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airfuel said:
Oh Boy.
(coffee is kicking in)

Banging through the gears (all gear runs) is absoluely useless on a Fuel injected bike. It was usefull on carbed bikes in the old days before O2 sensors and was a crude way to tune different carb setups.

Today, there are 2 ways to tune a FI bike on a dyno: manually or with "Tuning Link"

Manually takes many hours of "pulls" in each throttle position to correct the airfuel ratio. The operator does a pull, looks at the results, changes the power commander, does another pull to see if it is better. This can take many, many pulls at each throttle position to get somewhat good. Most of the day is needed.
Also the dyno MUST have an eddy current brake to correctly map the lower throttle positions. (more later)

Tuning Link is software that helps map a bike. The operator does a pull at say 100% throttle, the tuning link software changes the PC and you check it with another pull. It usually takes 2-3 pulls at each throttle position to get it perfect.

Also, maximizing map resolution to every 250 tuning increments makes for a finer tune. (but takes much longer if mapping manually)

The above procedure is called "roll on mapping" and is done in different gears at the higher throttle positions. (20-100% throttle positions)

"steady state mapping" is done at lower throttle positions for a really fine tune.
the Dyno brake holds a specific rpm, (must have a braking system on the dyno) the software (or operator) changes the PC and checks for the correct a/f ratio. This can take forever if done manually but Tuning lonk automates the process and goes much faster and is more accurate.

A power commander has hundreds of tuning spots and can take most of the day to do correctly manually, but Tuning link can do a better job in an hour or so if the operator knows what he is doing.

Mapping out the throttle abruptness that many MV's have is a little trickier. It involves mapping the 0% and 2% column of the PC. Most operators don't do this.

You run the bike, get off the gas like on the street, you then roll back on the gas like you are exiting a corner. Watching the O2 sensor you can see if a lean or rich condition exists when rolling back on the gas (usually lean) This causes the injectors to go from basically off (flowing no gas) to flowing alot of gas causing the "lurch"

If you richen the 0% colum you lessen this lurching effect for a smoother transition from off gas to on gas.

It is trial and error on each bike and takes some time.

When going to a dyno, ask for before and after runs and make sure they give you the airfuel ratio printout on each printout!

Also, be warned that the first run is usually the weakest so if you see a printout with run 001 against run 003, you will most likely see a gain but with no tuning.
Ask for 3 before runs then the best run after mapping to get a good comparison.

Correction factors: Different countries use differnt correction factors and they all read different.
The most common is SAE. The Society of Automotive Engineers came up with a correction factor that taked out the effects of weather conditions. A bike will make more HP at sea level on a cool crisp day as compared to a bike at high elevation on a hot humid day. SAE correction factor adds or subtracts HP to make them both comparible.
STD correction factor is not widely used and usually reads much higher than SAE.
Uncorrected reads high on cool days at sea level but reads low on a hot humid day.
DIN is used in Europe and usually reads a little higher than SAE.

Also, look at your printout for the run conditions. You will usually see Temp, Humidiy and Barometer. If any of these are reading off, it will alter the numbers (High temp or barometer)

I think that should do, coffee is wearing off.......
I guess that's a NO then??

Seriously though nice post, the dyno man I use always spends a fair bit of time just accelerating and shutting off in the lower rpm's with varying amounts of load :) :) :) :)
 

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The Dude
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haha! Mike, yeah! great post! Wonder why the airfuel guy didn't think of that! :)




j/k. Nice stuff John.

I feel like it warrants a 'sticky', but also suspect in another month or so you'd be up for typing it all again..... :) :)
 

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now john....my question is.....how hard is it to dyno a bike for wheelies and endo's? All i care about is making 150hp out of my 750 :f4:
 

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Sorry!! my fault John.....................looking back I guess it appears that I assumed Mike was responsible for the post which in fact he was, but you wrote the tech stuff and I didn't give you the credit................
Respeck due!! Respeck Given. :yo:
 
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