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Discussion Starter #1
odonata said:
Great, I am actually not bias about this subject... I just suggested for him to check out the link, since there seems to be a lot of supporter of the mototune method.

What do the race teams do to break in their bikes? are their methods practical or applicable for street bikes?

Can you share with me your views on the subject? are you in favor of the OEM method of something different? and why?

Thanks.
This is my own personal opinion on my own personal bikes.

I am in favour of the factory method that Goggi confirmed. This subject is like oil brand/weight, politics or religion. I mostly stay out of the conversations but wanted to let a new owner of a 910R know that not everyone agrees the mototune method is either better, needed or even potentially 'recommended'.

I support a hard break in on a race engine with low lifing of parts and where you are either paid for tenth's of a second or willing to sacrifice longevity and money for them. In these situations mechanics pay attention, know what to watch for and and know what to do if something shows wear.

I prefer factory break in for bikes not concerned about tenths of a second or dyno numbers.

Hopefully that was written without the logical fallacy that so often accompanies this discussion.

I'm very open to more information with this regard but have yet to see anything empirical on my concerns about why we should all follow mototune - and this is an old topic for me like I suspect it is for many of you.
 

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I agree with James, and I always follow the factory break-in routines. Another important consideration is that (as the manual states) break-in applies not only to the engine, but the entire bike.
If you want your bike to be safe, reliable, and last for many miles on the road, I would suggest following the manufacturers recommendations.
 

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I agree as well with James but would also like to point out that the break in is also for the 'rider'. It is curcial for safety reasons that you learn how the bike handles and delivers power. There is no doubt this is factored into the factorys tierd break in routine.
 

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I have talked to several Dealer mechanics who have been doing high performance bikes. What it comes down to is basically a compromise, a half and half solution. So this the way I have been doing it:

Up to 600 miles, don't use the top gear and vary rpm up to 6000 with very short burst of up to 10,000 rpm (less than a second, and shift up) to set the seals. Never cruise at a constant rpm.
Up to 700 miles, same as above, except for rpm up to 7,000 rpm
up to 800 miles, sames as above, except up to 8,000 rpm
up to 900 miles, sames as above, except up to 9,000 rpm
ect, etc,

That allows you to stay with the factory guidlines while for very short burst of time you increase the compression to set the seals in the cylinders...without trashing the engine at race pace for long duration of time, i.e. best of both world.
 

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kamranmarashi said:
I have talked to several Dealer mechanics who have been doing high performance bikes. What it comes down to is basically a compromise, a half and half solution. So this the way I have been doing it:

Up to 600 miles, don't use the top gear and vary rpm up to 6000 with very short burst of up to 10,000 rpm (less than a second, and shift up) to set the seals. Never cruise at a constant rpm.
Up to 700 miles, same as above, except for rpm up to 7,000 rpm
up to 800 miles, sames as above, except up to 8,000 rpm
up to 900 miles, sames as above, except up to 9,000 rpm
ect, etc,

That allows you to stay with the factory guidlines while for very short burst of time you increase the compression to set the seals in the cylinders...without trashing the engine at race pace for long duration of time, i.e. best of both world.
Yeah, that is basically the comprimise I do, although note that before the first service I never use full throttle, even for the quick bursts, nor do I allow a passenger until after break-in.
 

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I went with the Kamran compromise of sorts. I took it very easy for a bit. Then, when fully warm, a few (ok maybe a little more) short bursts up to 10,000. I'm not really pushing or babying it...but felt the short bursts made sense. I'm absolutely no expert...but my gut sense is that these modern engines would need virtually no real break-in, and the conservative guidance is as also for the other components of the bike and general familiarity.

One quick anecdote. The Porsche dealers would always tell me there was no break in necessary. They were emphatic. The guy who took this dealers first delivery of a 996 twin turbo slowly went down the lot to the street. He then fiddled with the radio and buttons while everyone admired the car for 10 minutes. He then proceeded to redline the engine drop the clutch and smoke all four tires. Foolish perhaps...but entertaining
 

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I broke in all my motors HARD. Granted, all my motors were essentialy race or hi-po motors, used for daily driving, I had the need for longevity AND performance. I've NEVER had any issues with longevity. Leakdown and compression tests at 100K miles proved my points on all my motors.

But very realisticly speaking, I think most of the people on here would neither benefit or be at a disadvantage from either break-in method, as most people on here will either sell/upgrade thier bike before it even reaches any decent amount of milage, or most don't ride it enough to warrant the arguement of "for longevity of the motor".

I on the other hand, have only had the bike for a 2 weeks and have already put on a little over 1000 miles....so this is kinda a soft spot for me, considering I need/want to benefit both longevity AND performance.

But the hard break-in has never steered me wrong.
 

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If you were a manufacturer, wouldn't you also encourage people to be easy on the equipment? Sure does help with warranty claims. :rolleyes:

Also, what corporate lawyer would let a manufacturer say, "Go as fast as you want"?

Just drive it like you normally would. They are designed for it, use it!

(ever see what they do to engines at the factory as they roll off the line)

John T
 

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^^ 100% correct. If something breaks during a hard break-in...it's gonna break down the road.

If you think about it, not running it hard at the beginning really only is mental, considering people themselves say they run it hard after the odometer ticks past teh "break-in point". So, what's really the difference between running it hard now and later? What's getting broken-in again? Why? And what's the purpose for waiting? I'm still not satisfied in hearing "for longevity", as what makes running it gently, initially, make it have a longer life? If anything, it would make it shorter due to gas blow-by from the rings not seating properly.

Eitherway, your rings are getting seated, it's just a matter of how. There's still friction in the motor...the pistons still go up and down...you're only delaying the inevitable...i.e. satisfying the manufacturer by not making sure you didn't buy anything THEY screwed up assembling.

It's easy to say you'de do it to "break it in", but imagine if you DID just buy a Tamburini, and the 1st time you open her up driving off the lot, your motor blows. Their point would be "You didn't follow the break-in.." Your very first arguing point would be "If it broke the 1st time it was opened up, it woulda brokeanyways, just later down the road! You guys screwed up, now fix it!" Kettle, meet pot....
 

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Do a little research on piston powered aircraft and the break in procedure they use.(new and rebuilt engines) Full Throttle to seat the rings. Besides, rings seat very fast...glaze the cylinder walls (with a gentle running) and you are toast.

Longevity?? Who runs bikes over 100,000 miles anyway? (except the odd beemer rider)

Bottom line, your bike, do what you think is best.
 

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airfuel said:
If you were a manufacturer, wouldn't you also encourage people to be easy on the equipment? Sure does help with warranty claims. :rolleyes:

Also, what corporate lawyer would let a manufacturer say, "Go as fast as you want"?

Just drive it like you normally would. They are designed for it, use it!

(ever see what they do to engines at the factory as they roll off the line)

John T
I agree, I've run in my last 3 bikes (2 R1's and a Ducati 996) like this
 

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Food for thought... when the engine is new and you do an oil change, you see a lot of crud coming out, and possibly bit and pieces of metal shaving. The oil coming out is also indicative of how the engine is being broken in. So, now imagine all the metal shavings and bits and pieces in therer while you are running the engine hard at very high rpm all the time, without allowing the engine to clean itself out with a little bit of time...just a thought??? :conveyer:
 

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kamranmarashi said:
Food for thought... when the engine is new and you do an oil change, you see a lot of crud coming out, and possibly bit and pieces of metal shaving. The oil coming out is also indicative of how the engine is being broken in. So, now imagine all the metal shavings and bits and pieces in therer while you are running the engine hard at very high rpm all the time, without allowing the engine to clean itself out with a little bit of time...just a thought??? :conveyer:
A very valid point, I always change my oil around 100 miles then again at 300 miles and again at the specified 600 mile service when running in an engine.
 

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JamesC said:
This is my own personal opinion on my own personal bikes.

I am in favour of the factory method that Goggi confirmed. This subject is like oil brand/weight, politics or religion. I mostly stay out of the conversations but wanted to let a new owner of a 910R know that not everyone agrees the mototune method is either better, needed or even potentially 'recommended'.....
Thanks James for starting this thread and to address my questions. This engine break in issue is very similar to precision rifle barrel break in, there are many ways(perhaps myth) with that subject as well, and after reading the posts so far, I had some thoughts and questions...

Are there articles/reports done by independent labs on this subject?

I understand when a new bike is purchased that it's not just the engine that requires careful breaking in, other component like brake system(pads & rotor mating) & tires also needs to be broken in as well... any other parts?

Do race bike & engines get broken in systematically on a dyno?

I support a hard break in on a race engine with low lifing of parts and where you are either paid for tenth's of a second or willing to sacrifice longevity and money for them. In these situations mechanics pay attention, know what to watch for and and know what to do if something shows wear.

I prefer factory break in for bikes not concerned about tenths of a second or dyno numbers
James, to me it seems that you think there is a conflict between engine performance and longevity? I know you probably don't feel as blk/white as it reads... but just wondering why you feel that way?

it seems to me that the longevity issue has more to do with how you use and take care of your bike between the periods just after the break in and the time your bike dies THAN how you break in the bike (assuming you carefully follow the method you choose)?

It seems to me that airfuel has a valid and logical point about the OEM's motive in their method of breaking in, but I must say that it also seems to me there isn't a clealy proven superior break in method (to produce an engine with more power and perhaps more longevity), or is there?


I know that the production sportsbike engines is not produced with very consistant and exacting tolerances from 1 bike to the next, so they are not identical in performance, but would it be worth while (if owners agree to participate) to have 2 or more pairs of identical bikes, i.e. new F4s or Brutales dynoed when new and then break in in different methods, then dynoed again @ 1000 mile for a comparison?

This is only some of my thoughts, just trying to cut through the fog a bit at a time.
 

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kamranmarashi said:
Food for thought... when the engine is new and you do an oil change, you see a lot of crud coming out, and possibly bit and pieces of metal shaving. The oil coming out is also indicative of how the engine is being broken in. So, now imagine all the metal shavings and bits and pieces in therer while you are running the engine hard at very high rpm all the time, without allowing the engine to clean itself out with a little bit of time...just a thought??? :conveyer:
Yup, and as Moto Man points out, change the oil early to get the crap out.He changes his just after the first hard initial run. Then another early change, then on to regular schedule.

John T
 

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airfuel said:
Yup, and as Moto Man points out, change the oil early to get the crap out.He changes his just after the first hard initial run. Then another early change, then on to regular schedule.

John T
You have to realise that the factory method is a general method for the general public i.e. 600 miles oil change, 3000 miles, etc...
I'm sure if you are a capable mechanic or have access to one and can monitor the bike frequently, you could vary/speed up the method from factory. That's why I like the compromise, since I like to spend my time riding than fooling around with the bike! :D :D
 

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odonata said:
I know that the production sportsbike engines is not produced with very consistant and exacting tolerances from 1 bike to the next, so they are not identical in performance, but would it be worth while (if owners agree to participate) to have 2 or more pairs of identical bikes, i.e. new F4s or Brutales dynoed when new and then break in in different methods, then dynoed again @ 1000 mile for a comparison?

This is only some of my thoughts, just trying to cut through the fog a bit at a time.
Well, if you dyno'd the bikes with 0 miles...both got the "proper" break-in :)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
odonata said:
Thanks James for starting this thread and to address my questions. This engine break in issue is very similar to precision rifle barrel break in, there are many ways(perhaps myth) with that subject as well, and after reading the posts so far, I had some thoughts and questions...

Are there articles/reports done by independent labs on this subject?

I understand when a new bike is purchased that it's not just the engine that requires careful breaking in, other component like brake system(pads & rotor mating) & tires also needs to be broken in as well... any other parts?

Do race bike & engines get broken in systematically on a dyno?

James, to me it seems that you think there is a conflict between engine performance and longevity? I know you probably don't feel as blk/white as it reads... but just wondering why you feel that way?

it seems to me that the longevity issue has more to do with how you use and take care of your bike between the periods just after the break in and the time your bike dies THAN how you break in the bike (assuming you carefully follow the method you choose)?

It seems to me that airfuel has a valid and logical point about the OEM's motive in their method of breaking in, but I must say that it also seems to me there isn't a clealy proven superior break in method (to produce an engine with more power and perhaps more longevity), or is there?


I know that the production sportsbike engines is not produced with very consistant and exacting tolerances from 1 bike to the next, so they are not identical in performance, but would it be worth while (if owners agree to participate) to have 2 or more pairs of identical bikes, i.e. new F4s or Brutales dynoed when new and then break in in different methods, then dynoed again @ 1000 mile for a comparison?

This is only some of my thoughts, just trying to cut through the fog a bit at a time.

Lab reports; I've not come across specific motorcycle studies and would be interested to read some. I've read some car powerplant reports in old racecar engineering and race tech, f1 tech.
Most of what you read and find are fairly straightforward but narrow; anecdotal tear downs and non-regimented studies. I would very much like to read something more than an opinion.

Break in of other parts; agreed on brakes and clutch bedding, etc

I think large race teams work their engines on an engine dyno, agreed.

I do feel there is a relationship between longevity and performance and I feel they are directly disparate end goals :laughing:

I'm assuming normal service intervals, another topic of debate I guess since so far my oil has always shown that additives were still present in quantities sufficient to allow for more miles on the oil..and this on syn ester which I understand tends to break down faster.

I understand manufacturers running a vehicle through the gears and revs before they leave the floor but IIRC this was process engineering regarding detecting fault earlier rather than a true attempt at a 'break in'. In fact if we look at this process in a pure form we'd see that the manufacturer starts the bike, has it at idle revs and climbs through the gears to redline. Not even the mototune method is this harsh 100% of the time yet if we were relying on this to tell us how to use our motors this is the method we'd have to use isn't it? To me this is a factor of production rather than use.

If there is a superior method I'd like to hear about it too :laughing:
Along with this small sample test I'd like to suggest oil analysis at each change :) I'm not sure we'll arrive at any new conclusion but could be interesting none the less.

I am fine with whoever does what but as I said this is my opinion and now I guess the reasons behind. I have friends and my own vehicles that have been broken in by both methods and those in between and there is no real pattern to detect failure nor predict performance - so I go to what I consider the greater chance of safe rather than the greater chance of fast. Unfortunately I don't get paid for fast but I DO pay for failure :laughing:
 

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airfuel said:
If you were a manufacturer, wouldn't you also encourage people to be easy on the equipment? Sure does help with warranty claims. :rolleyes:

Also, what corporate lawyer would let a manufacturer say, "Go as fast as you want"?

Just drive it like you normally would. They are designed for it, use it!

(ever see what they do to engines at the factory as they roll off the line)

John T
Funny, in the case of the MV and some other engines, this is probably exactly the reason for many returns.

I was told by Munroe Motors to go out and break in my bike HARD. Apparently the only problems they've seen with any of these bikes is oil control problems from bikes ridden too mildly during break-in.

If you can't break a bike in on the dyno, I say after a couple hundred miles at most, ride it like you mean it.
 

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airfuel said:
Do a little research on piston powered aircraft and the break in procedure they use.(new and rebuilt engines) Full Throttle to seat the rings. Besides, rings seat very fast...glaze the cylinder walls (with a gentle running) and you are toast.

Longevity?? Who runs bikes over 100,000 miles anyway? (except the odd beemer rider)

Bottom line, your bike, do what you think is best.
That's right, it's the load that helps the rings seal by increasing the pressure in the cylinders.

The owner manual (of most if not all vehicles) states to vary the rpm, which obviously means accelerate and decelerate, exactly what you would do on a dyno, except on a dyno you don't have to worry about traffic and speed limits, so you should take it a bit easier, and there's no need to run big rpms initially, wait until everything has polished itself together.
 
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