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Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but do all the spark plug holes have water weep holes or perhaps holes that are linked to the end cylinders for this purpose? I don't remember any discussion on this. If these holes are supposed to be there, you may have a cracked head with a crack that cannot be seen and opens up under torque and/or heat. In any case, if you are truly going to plug the hole or holes, I would do more research here and I would certainly not use any kind of schmutz, I don't care how good it supposedly is or what it's made from. Schmutzing it is a temporary repair.

I would have it TIG welded, but only after the research has been done and the head tested - pressure and/or fluxed. Just an assumption, but I would think that the cost of doing this repair properly is most likely a small fraction of the cost of a new head and would pay for itself by you not having to worry about the thing leaking again. Last, re fixing this thing properly, you most like ain't the first guy in the world with this problem on a cylinder head; you just have to find the right guy to fix it.
 

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Yes, welding both ends of the drain passage seems like a good option. Or the hole below the exhaust port could be tapped and sealed with a threaded plug. This may also be possible for the hole in the spark plug recess but the layout may mean welding is the only option. A second hand head would be preferable if you can find on though.
 

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Discussion Starter #63
Excuse me if this has been brought up before, but do all the spark plug holes have water weep holes or perhaps holes that are linked to the end cylinders for this purpose? I don't remember any discussion on this. If these holes are supposed to be there, you may have a cracked head with a crack that cannot be seen and opens up under torque and/or heat. In any case, if you are truly going to plug the hole or holes, I would do more research here and I would certainly not use any kind of schmutz, I don't care how good it supposedly is or what it's made from. Schmutzing it is a temporary repair.

I would have it TIG welded, but only after the research has been done and the head tested - pressure and/or fluxed. Just an assumption, but I would think that the cost of doing this repair properly is most likely a small fraction of the cost of a new head and would pay for itself by you not having to worry about the thing leaking again. Last, re fixing this thing properly, you most like ain't the first guy in the world with this problem on a cylinder head; you just have to find the right guy to fix it.
I appreciate the input. I don't off hand know of where I can take it to get the kind of things your are talking about done to it, but I'll see what I can find.

Yes, welding both ends of the drain passage seems like a good option. Or the hole below the exhaust port could be tapped and sealed with a threaded plug. This may also be possible for the hole in the spark plug recess but the layout may mean welding is the only option. A second hand head would be preferable if you can find on though.
Yes, I think welding the spark plug well side is the only option as there is no space in there to do anything else.

Thanks.
 

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There are a couple of guys that can do this and who I have had experience with.
Van has a lot of capability and has a race department that was doing modified OHV race engines when I was there last. If they cannot help, they certainly could network you to somebody
Jim Carl who owns Precision Chassis has been building motorcycles for longer than the length of time I have known him, the latter of which is about 40 yrs. He does mostly frames but knows everybody. Ask him for a lead
His number (484) 932-8031
Facebook only apparently https://www.facebook.com/Precision-Chassis-Inc-160338450719439/
I am trying to forget that I have known Albert Bold for maybe 40 yrs also since even I have to kiss his ring to get something done in between his jobs for Jay Leno and Steve Roper. I love Albert, but he is a royal pain in the ass. He can weld beer cans together. I am not joking. Probably the most talented welder, fabricator and machinist I have ever known. If you can get him to do this, he can do this.
I would also call or ask for a lead from Ed Quay Customs (610) 326-8050 (don't ask for Ed - he passed) who does a lot of special welding. They welded a magnesium transmission case for me from a 911 but they don't do any precision machining.

Of all these, the first guy I would call, and I hate to say it, is Albert.....
 
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Discussion Starter #65
There are a couple of guys that can do this and who I have had experience with.
Van has a lot of capability and has a race department that was doing modified OHV race engines when I was there last. If they cannot help, they certainly could network you to somebody
Jim Carl who owns Precision Chassis has been building motorcycles for longer than the length of time I have known him, the latter of which is about 40 yrs. He does mostly frames but knows everybody. Ask him for a lead
His number (484) 932-8031
Facebook only apparently https://www.facebook.com/Precision-Chassis-Inc-160338450719439/
I am trying to forget that I have known Albert Bold for maybe 40 yrs also since even I have to kiss his ring to get something done in between his jobs for Jay Leno and Steve Roper. I love Albert, but he is a royal pain in the ass. He can weld beer cans together. I am not joking. Probably the most talented welder, fabricator and machinist I have ever known. If you can get him to do this, he can do this.
I would also call or ask for a lead from Ed Quay Customs (610) 326-8050 (don't ask for Ed - he passed) who does a lot of special welding. They welded a magnesium transmission case for me from a 911 but they don't do any precision machining.

Of all these, the first guy I would call, and I hate to say it, is Albert.....
Thanks for the connections, Rob, I really appreciate it. I will try to find something more local to SoCal first if I can, but this is good information to have if I am unsuccessful.

It's been a rough weekend and I'm getting a little down about the whole thing.

Although I hear where your coming from, especially about having it welded, I do wonder what the downside is to trying an epoxy - just for the sake of argument? It seems to me the worse that could happen is it will leak again. Am I wrong in thinking that? Is there some other damage or something else that could go wrong? I am just trying to understand my options.

Again, I appreciate all your help!
 

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You're right, I think that there is little downside from doing the epoxy thing unless it dislodges - either whole or in part - and gets somewhere to clog the works. But I would agree that the risk of that is low; it just seems that it's not a permanent fix. Riding a "ticking bomb" however would drive me nuts.

I would not get too upset about this. It's a mechanical problem that can possibly be fixed but the main thing is that you have to find out what passages should be there and what shouldn't. And that can only be done with research and asking someone who knows that bike and engine. Welding and re- machining a head, while perhaps expensive, is really not that big of a deal assuming a welder can get to the problem area. First thing to do is to find out what "right" is.
 

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The issue is not knowing if it's a crack our a casting defect. That's step one upon locating it.
 

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further... if its a casting defect with a crack then that needs to be taken into account for a possible replacement since a poor casting might be larger than the leak.
 

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I would have thought that a casting problem would have reared it's head a lot sooner than 60k mi, but you cannot assume anything out.
 

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It might be worth reaching out to Noel the Knurl via PM. I am sure his wise old head will have an option.
I may be mistaken, but I would have thought it is possible to open up the water jacket enough to get in and get a good weld to the affected area, then build it back up and deck the head back to being flat.
 

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JB Weld makes a variety of products..... go to their web site and check. The "Steel" won't corrode in your head's cooling passage.
Still finding it strange a casting flaw would open up this long after being put into service.
I have used standard JB weld to repair engine cases and radiators in the past. Go for the High Temp stuff that is suitable for exhaust manifolds.
Hope this works for you. .
 

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I’m no expert at all, but would assume that if the problem is a crack, it may open more. If not the case I don’t think that jb is a bad solution, but would check the head for cracks first.


Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk
 

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Okay let’s all say it was fixed with some sort of metal putty from McMaster Carr or the generally known JB. If the crack is indeed found and filled with a tad overlapping the joint for good measure... what is the worst possible outcome if the casting failed greater than the ‘fixed’ area?

We already know a sudden loss of coolant would happen. The first consequence would be possible loss of traction. The second immediate increase of engine temp. The third being stranded if first two don’t cause an undesirable health crisis.

if the current ‘crack’, if it is a crack, widens incrementally or suddenly, what would happen to the head in terms of catastrophic loss?
 

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Discussion Starter #74
It might be worth reaching out to Noel the Knurl via PM. I am sure his wise old head will have an option.
I may be mistaken, but I would have thought it is possible to open up the water jacket enough to get in and get a good weld to the affected area, then build it back up and deck the head back to being flat.
I did actually PM Noel last night. I haven't heard back from him. I haven't PM'd someone since the new platform and am assuming the new way is "start a conversation".

Okay let’s all say it was fixed with some sort of metal putty from McMaster Carr or the generally known JB. If the crack is indeed found and filled with a tad overlapping the joint for good measure... what is the worst possible outcome if the casting failed greater than the ‘fixed’ area?

We already know a sudden loss of coolant would happen. The first consequence would be possible loss of traction. The second immediate increase of engine temp. The third being stranded if first two don’t cause an undesirable health crisis.

if the current ‘crack’, if it is a crack, widens incrementally or suddenly, what would happen to the head in terms of catastrophic loss?
I would think that it would result in a loss of coolant which is exactly what has already happened to me. I don't plan on going cross country anytime soon :D. Of course that wouldn't be fun to have it lose coolant and would probably require my wife driving out wherever I am and picking me up, but I wouldn't think it would be something like the engine suddenly seizing and locking up the rear wheel.

I'll think on it some more for a bit. Appreciate all the response.
 

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Discussion Starter #75 (Edited)
Ha, I just had this happen and put in a Time-sert last weekend! I assembled or made all of the needed tools for far less than the Time-sert price as well. If you were further south I would have been happy to lend to a hand.
View attachment 479763
A little off my topic, but interesting:

I was looking through this thread: Blown out spark plug

And came upon the post above. This is photo of pittmeister's 2007 910R spark plug well does not show a drain hole. I wonder if the drain holes were introduced with the 2008 (or Euro 3) edition. When looking at schematics on StarTwin, there are two different part numbers for the head for the 910 series.

Just for a visual comparison, you can clearly see the drain hole on my spark plug well:

SparkPlugWell_DrainHole.jpg
 

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My 2008 910R has them....my 2004 SPR 750 does not.... nor does my spare 750 cylinder head.
Most modern bikes have them. I know all Suzuki GSX-Rs for the past 15 years do.
 
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