[silentservice703]

Reading through other threads, it strikes me that we should have a discussion about whether it is the bike or the rider that makes the record.

I hold up as examples: Rossi going to Ducati, Camier going to Honda, Lorenzo going to Ducati, etc.

With a change of bike came a change of performance - some better - some worse.

Discuss.

 

[Angelo-MV]

Too many variables but I am going to say rider. MM won the MotoGP title this year because he is such a good rider on a very good bike. I don't think he wins on another bike but Dovizioso would had a better chance on a better bike.
Zarco has showed his skills on an independent team and should do much better on a factory ride.
But have you seen Camier's times since jumping on the Honda...

 

[silentservice703]

@Angelo-MV: You are making the point that it is the bike.....

 

[swissinn]

Ooooo I love these threads. The past has shown us time and time again that even the best riders/drivers in the world are unable to compete if the machinery isn't up to the task(Rossi-Ducati, Lorenzo-Ducati)(Schumacher-Mercedes, Alonso-Mclaren). Yet a rider with perhaps less raw talent can be a winner on a great machine. But then you get the rare combo of alien riders and amazing machinery and you end up with Rossi winning 5 in a row? MM93 crushing everyone now, Rea and Kawasaki is unbeatable and Mercedes in F1 with whatever driver they want. I feel this convo may have come about by my comment in the other thread about how Camier has the Honda into top 3rd on only day 2. Camier is likely the best development rider in motorcycle racing today. His ability to get the most out of every machine he rides is unbelievable. Honda knows this and they have the $$$ to heed his recommendations and make the bike fast. I think it'll be a contender in no time.

 

[swissinn]

So ya...machinery imho is the biggest factor.

 

[Angelo-MV]

I don't know. I would say it's matching the riders skill to bike that wins Championship. I added Zarco as an example but come to think about it he did say he liked the 2017 bike better than the 2016. So it's the perfect combination that wins championship in my head

@Angelo-MV: You are making the point that it is the bike.....

 

[Angelo-MV]

On another note. In MotoGP or WSBK, it would be fun to see the top 7-10 riders racing on identical bikes for a 3-5 race shootout

 

[silentservice703]

...an IROC on motorcycles....

 

[silentservice703]

Camier is likely the best development rider in motorcycle racing today. His ability to get the most out of every machine he rides is unbelievable. Honda knows this and they have the $$$ to heed his recommendations and make the bike fast.

...for Camier.

 

[GREGOSTINI]

Stoner on ducati proves that he is the goat.:nutkick:

 

[esq'z me]

It's BOTH..... The best rider cannot win on a sub-standard bike. The best bike will not be on the podium with a sub-standard rider.

It's the factory that makes a great bike and pairs it with a great rider that wins. That is what makes racing exciting. all the manufacturers are building great bikes and there is a group of aliens that are consistently in contention for the win.

Throw in the requisite "luck" factor and we get exciting races.....like this past MotoGP season.

You want an IROC type race....look no further than Moto2 with spec engines. It's all rider and set-up there.

 

[GREGOSTINI]

It's BOTH..... The best rider cannot win on a sub-standard bike. The best bike will not be on the podium with a sub-standard rider.

It's the factory that makes a great bike and pairs it with a great rider that wins. That is what makes racing exciting. all the manufacturers are building great bikes and there is a group of aliens that are consistently in contention for the win.

Throw in the requisite "luck" factor and we get exciting races.....like this past MotoGP season.

You want an IROC type race....look no further than Moto2 with spec engines. It's all rider and set-up there.

And I'll say again Stoner on Ducati, the best rider DID win on a sub standard bike!

 

[silentservice703]

Stoner on ducati proves that he is the goat.:nutkick:

So we take little Casey Stoner and put him on the MM93 Honda and he wins right out of the box?:shitfan::stir:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

 

[GREGOSTINI]

Nah, he's too busy fishing.

 

[esq'z me]

And I will state that the Ducati...at the time of Stoner...was NOT a substandard bike.

The beauty of MotoGP is that prototypes are what is racing (within limitations), and the experiments that lead to advanced technology for production sometimes do not work.

The frameless Ducati that began when Rossi went there was a failed first attempt. That is NOT the Ducati Stoner was riding....or the one Dovi was on this year.

Lot's of factors come in to play, luck amongst them (had Rossi's engine not blown, or his leg gotten broken he may well have been in the final fight for the Championship this year).

I saw Stoner ride and he was indeed very fast on that day. Have to get the right set-up on the bike, and that is a combination of rider and manufacturer (engineers) working together on a given day and a given track.

I say it is BOTH.

 

[GREGOSTINI]

Stoner won on Ducati with two Hondas, two Suzukis, and a Yamaha behind him in the standings before the next Ducati, in the hands of Loris Capirossi, a former 125 and 250cc world champion. Need I say more.

 

[JDS]

.

In my humble opinion, in a hypothetical situation where all being equal, then I think the machinery has the edge .. But as Ed said, in the real World its a combination of both Rider and Machine.

But there is the exception... Mike Hailwood.. Hailwood was known to be hopeless at setting up a bike and relied on his God given talent to ride round problems.. Teams couldn't rely on him to develop chassis's, but they could rely on him to put a bad handling bike on the podium.

What's a damn shame for us racing fans, is that we were denied seeing Stoner and marquez battling it out on the same Works Hondas .. Now that would have been amazing..

Stoner is one of the greatest riders not to be given the recognition he deserves.. Maybe its a personality thing or just down to timing.. Its hard to stand out in an era when Rossi was at his prime, on custom made rubber and a bike that was properly sorted.

I don't think you can use Moto2 as an example of "Even Stevens", as apart from the engine and electrics, the chassis are different.. It's even more important to have the best chassis on the grid in Moto2, because everything else on the bike is equal with your competition.

.

.

 

[silentservice703]

I tend to believe it's a magical combination of bike/rider/situation.

I do not beleive that Stoner would have won had he been on the Honda, Suzuki, or Yamaha of that year.

 

[style_one]

winning the race of the day or the championship depends on so many factors gelling together. some riders are better on certain bikes, some bikes on certain tracks. overall, I agree with those that say its both. stoner rode that ducati the same way that mm rides the Honda. these bikes happen to fit their styles at the moment. but even then, they don't (didn't) win on every track.

the one thing I enjoyed about motogp this year was that there were few Lorenzo break away wins. there always seemed to be a multi bike challenge which made things more exciting...i.e. zarco.

funny thing is, I thought this was going to be maverick's year. I'd like to see rossi get one more title so he can bow out gracefully. if he can do more, then great, but he's got his work cut out for him. if ducati gets Lorenzo's bike dialed in for his riding style, he will be something with all of that power.

 

[swissinn]

Rea is going to crush everyone again next year. Smashed the lap record again. Camier is flying on that Honda. Good to see.