MV Agusta Forum banner

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
What a refreshing approach, treat people as being responsible as the vast majority of us are . It’s unfortunate that governments treat their citizens with contempt and feel the need to “police” and control rather than serve as is their actual job description.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,410 Posts
Just fucking brilliant Sweden has 10 times the number of dead as Australia with half the population
So their death rate per capita is 20 times as high
But they FEEL GOOD!!!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
Yeah but they also have /had an open border to all and sundry as part of the European Union. Australia has the advantage of being on the other side of the world and as a result vastly removed when the shit hit the fan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
Perhaps but then nobody pays for a Ukrainian massage like they would for a Swedish one .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
QUOTE="cus, post: 2628049, member: 30161"]
I used to be at New Norfolk, up till May last year
[/QUOTE]
There are a few Hobarters in the last few months that have joined, mostly all on Brutales. That photo in your avatar, is it at Baskerville? You had a Falcon ute? VP of SRCT?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
924 Posts
I could be wrong, but I can't help it when when I see Sweden's approach that economics play a big part in this, the government did not want too shut down the economy. And it isn't a step to take likely.
Countries that have shut down like Italy, Spain, the UK, the US etc were badly in debt before the out break.
Here in the UK we have had years of austerity, with cut backs every where to try and get debt under at least some control, now how much is this going to cost and how long to recover?

Maybe the question is how much is a persons life worth? We don't shut down the economy every year for the common flu which kills approax 8000 folks in the UK, so what was the magic number, twice seasonal flu numbers say 16,000 dead means we shut down the nations economy? Should we have of moth ball'd those most at risk, ie isolate and where possible and supply what they need and not shut down? I have seen in my own small street children visiting older relatives, including one fathers children who come by public transport on the train when he lives with his elderly mother.

Do I think the average person is responsible, not really, but how do you define responsible where free choice is concerned, I thought in the UK for example the average person is over weight and in debt. What percentage of folks with out car mot's and heavy fines would be driving with illegal bald tires in the wet UK, either through neglect or wilful neglect?

Here is something that I can't understand, several countries have mentioned opening schools will be one of the first releases from the lock down, but any parent knows from experience that Corona virus's like colds are always bought home by the kids from school. I can't think of a better way to spread it with out us all kissing one another, open the schools, kids are just so sensible at keeping away from one another, washing their hands and not touching their faces and mouths, oh and coughing and sneezing into a tissue etc.

And here's another question if I may, and this is on testing. I am not sure what it means in that if for example I am a care worker in an old folks home and I need to tested so it is safe to work with them, if I am tested on the Tuesday what is to stop me contracting said virus on the Thursday?
I may be saying this in ignorance but a lot of this testing seems to be about the same as using a culender(item with many holes) to carry water unless the testing is done often which isn't possible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
I could be wrong, but I can't help it when when I see Sweden's approach that economics play a big part in this, the government did not want too shut down the economy. And it isn't a step to take likely. Countries that have shut down like Italy, Spain, the UK, the US etc were badly in debt before the out break. Here in the UK we have had years of austerity, with cut backs every where to try and get debt under at least some control, now how much is this going to cost and how long to recover?

Maybe the question is how much is a persons life worth? We don't shut down the economy every year for the common flu which kills approax 8000 folks in the UK, so what was the magic number, twice seasonal flu numbers say 16,000 dead means we shut down the nations economy? Should we have of moth ball'd those most at risk, ie isolate and where possible and supply what they need and not shut down? I have seen in my own small street children visiting older relatives, including one fathers children who come by public transport on the train when he lives with his elderly mother.

Do I think the average person is responsible, not really, but how do you define responsible where free choice is concerned, I thought in the UK for example the average person is over weight and in debt. What percentage of folks with out car mot's and heavy fines would be driving with illegal bald tires in the wet UK, either through neglect or wilful neglect?

Here is something that I can't understand, several countries have mentioned opening schools will be one of the first releases from the lock down, but any parent knows from experience that Corona virus's like colds are always bought home by the kids from school. I can't think of a better way to spread it with out us all kissing one another, open the schools, kids are just so sensible at keeping away from one another, washing their hands and not touching their faces and mouths, oh and coughing and sneezing into a tissue etc.

And here's another question if I may, and this is on testing. I am not sure what it means in that if for example I am a care worker in an old folks home and I need to tested so it is safe to work with them, if I am tested on the Tuesday what is to stop me contracting said virus on the Thursday?
I may be saying this in ignorance but a lot of this testing seems to be about the same as using a culender(item with many holes) to carry water unless the testing is done often which isn't possible.
I assumed that Sweden was taking their approach because it would work, but that is not the case. Australia (25mill) has had about 85 deaths, Sweden (10 mill) has had about 2,000 deaths. Georgia (USA) which has about the same pop (as Sweden) has had about 900 die .

There is some minor variation between what the 6 states & 2 territories are doing here, but they all seem fairly reasonable. One state does not allow golfing, but universally I think all beaches, national parks, pubs and restaurants are closed. Schools would still be open I think but so many parents were keeping their children home that most closed.

In Tasmania, cycling or going for a walk is okay, and most businesses are still open. One can get take way food and alcohol, go fishing, hunting or recreational boating, as long as you do not drive too far to do so. Some of the rules seem a bit inconsistent, but I think the overall idea is that if you give people too much leeway then they will start roaming around like Brown's cows.

I find that people do not mind being told what to do if they know why, and what, it is for, and agree with the core premise. Hands up everyone who is okay about sacrificing their older family members, and maybe some younger ones as well? Nope. Fair enough, isolation and social distancing it is. Stop whingeing you at the back!

'Strine health authorities have consistently said, wash your hands, cover your cough/sneeze, stay away from people, stay at home unless it is essential travel. It is uncommon to see anyone wearing a mask, unless they are Asian Australians, but they wore masks before this all started because it is an Asian cultural thing.

There are always flu fatalities, but there are vaccines for the flu, this is different. I don't think anyone definitely knows, but it seems that we have a very long way to go indeed. If it really gets hold, then we are really for it. Amongst other things, we need to hope that Africa, the Indian sub-continent, and South America can keep a hold of it, and I wonder how much the wealthy nations are doing to help. De-funding WHO? Splendid.

Testing I assume is one of the ways to manage the current situation, but I suppose in theory, if some one's test is negative, and they continue to practice the prescribed health and safety advice, they they should not contract the virus. If one works in an environment were there is a risk, PPE should also ensure safety.

There has been calls here in 'striya for many years to increase the dole, as it was three fifths of bugger orl. (Australia and NZ have unique social security systems, paid from general revenue, based on need and eligibility.) As a result of the crisis, the dole has effectively been doubled. Australia could not afford it before. Now we can. Wacko. We can also afford a swag of other measures to ensure that businesses do not go down the gurgler. Budget shortfalls are a convenient myth for governments. My guess the next election is going to see even the conservatives (Liberal/National Party coalition) dedicating spending to health, and maybe even education. The Labor Party will have their policies pinched. haha

I will separately post some articles by a journalist that I respect. I do not always agree with him but of the two of us there is a fair chance he would be better informed than I.

If you are interested, he has some very telling things to say about how Britain and the USA have handled all this.

Gwynne Dyer | Meet Gwynne

regards
Scott
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Nobody Mention UBI

BY GWYNNE DYER ⋅ MARCH 25, 2020

When you lock the people down (to save their lives), you inevitably close down a lot of the economy as well. And the lockdown will definitely have to last in most countries until May or June: Donald Trump’s promise of a ‘beautiful timeline’ to reopening the US economy just two weeks hence is delusional. So where’s the money coming from in the meantime?

The majority of people still have jobs they get paid for: people in essential services who have to go to work, people who can do their work from home, and quite a few others as well.

However, between a third and quarter of the employed population has been left idle as their employers, from airlines to retail businesses, downsize or shut temporarily. If you leave these people without income, then you are reproducing the conditions of the Great Depression of the 1930s, when unemployment peaked at 24% in the United States and the country’s GDP shrank by almost half.

Adolf Hitler came to power when German unemployment reached 30%: misery and desperation can lead to violence. Nobody wanted to see that movie again, so after the Second World War every developed country created a welfare state to shelter its population from the worst effects of the ‘business cycle’.

The welfare state has served us well for most of a century (including in the United States, whose rudimentary welfare state was first in the field with Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal of the 1930s). But it is not enough to keep the wheels turning when a huge chunk of the workforce had dropped out for reasons that are not economic but health-related.

That’s why governments, including deeply orthodox right-wing ones like the Conservatives in Britain and the Republicans in the United States, are turning to what economist Milton Friedman first named ‘helicopter money’ half a century ago.

The idea is that a government can reboot an economy in which spending power has collapsed (because so many are out of work) by simply giving the penniless consumers free money – as if throwing it out of a helicopter. After all, it’s free money for the government too: they just ask the central banks to print it for them.

At this point traditionalists will begin to mutter about inflation, and the risk of undermining the work ethic, and various other shibboleths, but the governments in all the bigger Western economies – the US, the UK, Germany, France – are in conservative hands at the moment, and they are all doing it.

As Robert Chote, director of Britain’s comically named Office for Budget Responsibility, said last week: “When the fire is large enough you just spray the water and worry about it later.” So get in the chopper and start dropping the money.

Sweden has guaranteed laid-off workers 90% of their incomes until the health crisis is past, France is offering ‘partial unemployment benefits’ equal to 84% of the workers’ incomes, and Britain is offering 80%. In every case the employers (who are also getting government aid) are expected to hold their employees’ jobs open for them when normal service is restored.

Even the self-employed, including the ‘gig’ workers who now make up around 10% of the workforce, are not being left out. Norway is giving them 80% of their income based on their last three years of tax returns (tough luck if they understated it), and most other European countries will follow suit.

The United States government is less generous, of course, and would be even under a Democratic administration: the free-market ideology is the real national religion. President Trump is talking about $1,200 per person (the same as Hong Kong is giving its citizens), but only for one month or at the most two. And the proposal is still stuck in Congress.

Nevertheless, what all these governments (and others elsewhere in the world) are really playing with is the idea of a guaranteed national income that nobody can fall below. Only temporarily, you understand. Once the Covid-19 virus is tamed, we’ll go back to the dog-eat-dog, devil-take-the-hindmost economy we all know and love.

Really? You think that after six months or a year of this we will just go back tamely to the old economic rules? I rather doubt it.

The political and economic rules do not evolve gradually in modern societies; they shift in sudden great lurches. The First World War drew millions of women into the factories and kick-started women’s emancipation.

The rise of fascism and the Second World War required the creation of the full welfare state (which was previously restricted to meagre old age pensions) to avoid a replay the next time the economy tanked.

The current emergency may be fostering the rise of ideas previously seen as too radical to contemplate, but nobody say ‘Universal Basic Income’ yet. You’ll frighten the horses.
____
 
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Top