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2012 f41000rr
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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all! 馃憢

A little over a year and a half ago I got myself a 2012 F41000RR with ~3500 miles on it. The second time I started it up and took it for a ride (the same day I took it home) the bike started stalling as soon as I would let the clutch out as if there was no bite point - just on or off. I called the dealer and they picked up the bike, looked it over, said they couldn't find the problem so they'd order and install a new clutch free of charge. I got it back a couple of weeks later and all seemed well.

I've since put ~4500 miles on that clutch (currently 8662mi), and now I'm having a new problem. The other day I was stopped for gas and upon starting the bike up again I noticed some significant clutch creep and it was basically impossible to get into neutral with the engine on at a stop. Took it home and put it on rear stand: clutch lever pulled in 1st-6th gear and the wheel spins same as if it's in gear and would stall out in 6th if I applied the rear brake.

A few things to note:
  • The bike had not been sitting for more than a month
  • I did bleed the brakes/clutch before this started happening.
  • Also, I usually only pull the clutch lever in about a quarter of the way on upshifts, but always all the way in on downshifts.
  • The bike runs pretty hot despite replacing coolant recently. I live in Texas and it's almost always 1 or 2 bars above "normal"
Here's what I've done so far to try and solve the problem:

  • Re-bled (both top and bottom bleed nipples) at least 5 times - no change
  • Tried unsticking the clutch while parked and revving in 1st/2nd
  • Pulled off and visually inspected slave cylinder - no noticeable leaks and the cylinder/clutch control rod looked clean and undamaged
  • No noticeable leakage/damage at clutch master cylinder
  • Pour fresh oil over clutch pack (pic of oil I used below)
482175

The clutch lever feels great and I don't see leaks anywhere. A buddy and I pulled off the clutch cover. FYI to others in case you run into this - none of my 8mm sockets were able to access the leftmost cover bolt until we took off some of the perimeter of the socket with a grinder :/
482173

We took a video hoping someone might be able to spot a problem at a glance. I can't find any measurements with respect to clutch travel in the manuals I've found online, but it appears the clutch is extending out far enough. We also noted some scoring on the perimeter of the pressure plate (see picture below) - not sure if that's poor manufacturing or a problem.


I'm picking up some tools today to remove the pressure plate to inspect the disks/friction surfaces. I'll post an update if I can get to em. Did notice that when releasing the clutch they don't seem to separate at all - used a screwdriver to gently separate some disks, but still extremely hard to turn the rear wheel by hand with the clutch in while in gear.

I have an appt scheduled with the dealership a couple of weeks out just in case I can't get to the bottom of this on my own. Sorry for the long post, but any help would be much appreciated.

I'm considering swapping out the entire clutch assembly so any recommendations are also appreciated. I'd almost prefer a non-slipper clutch just to reduce complexity - I'm not a racer so don't really need it, and the slipper clutch on this bike is not great. I have to feather it to get her going - any slight amount of power on start and the bike bucks like crazy!!

Thanks again,

-Ian
 

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If you have zero clutch slippage under power and noticed an unusual sound near the clutch when you're starting the bike, this may be the stator cush drive.

 

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2012 f41000rr
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Discussion Starter #3
Hey @cruiser thanks for the reply. I hadn't noticed any sounds out of the ordinary :/ . Also, since the oil has been drained I haven't been able to start it up lately, just attempting to turn the wheel by hand while testing the clutch. Would this type of issue make it extremely difficult to turn the wheel in gear clutch disengaged? I also haven't noticed any abnormal amount of slack in the drive train. I'll look into diagnosing a failed cush drive tho, so thanks for the idea.
 

Vendor
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Time for a new clutch master cylinder.The cylinder is by-passing internally by the sounds of it.
Or you could put a kit through it if you can get one.
Just test it first by very lightly pull in the clutch level and see if it slowly creeps towards the handlebar.
 

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Update: basket has notches in it - could this be the problem?
Link to photos of clutch baskets
So if you received a new clutch and ring set. When you removed them, did you take note of the smaller and larger spacer-rings (4 & 5) and how their installation sequence? - Not the regular rings. If these were incorrectly installed, the clutch doesn't quite disengage correctly. As Mitchy also suggested, the master cylinder which actuates the pusher-rod may need to be replaced.

482184


Cheers
 

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1 Did previous owner replace slave cylinder with a unit that is TOO big? 2. Did previous owner install CARBON FIBER clutch plates ? Tough as nails but they stick CONSTANTLY
 

Wing Nut
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Welcome to the family @codemonkey !! Please introduce yourself with a post in the "New Member" section.

Your oil could also be part of the problem. You should be using 10w60
Some marking on the basket and hub is normal, but deep notches will cause problems.. The hub in your photos looks very worn. I would replace that part. The basket doen't look so bad.

The plates will feel stuck together by the oil film when you disassemble cold. That's normal.
I think you need to also focus on the master cylinder as Mitchy said, and proper assembly of the judder spring washers Cruiser mentioned.
How are you bleeding the system? By hand or with a vacuum system?
The clutch is no different than any other modern bike, Japanese or Euro.....
 

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2012 f41000rr
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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for the replies, everyone 馃檹

@mitchy forgive my ignorance as I'm a weekend "mechanic" and therefore not very skilled. Would you please elaborate on how to test the MC? Also, by kit do you mean a rebuild kit?

@cruiser Good to know. I haven't inspected the spacer rings yet - I'll try and get them out for a look this evening and report back.

@[email protected] I looks like there is an aftermarket slave cylinder on the bike. I'll try and determine its specs, but right now I don't know if it's too big. I also don't have any info on the friction disks, unfortunately.

@esq'z me Thanks for the welcome! Thank you for the information/recommendation. I'm leaning towards replacing the whole clutch system. I'll search the forum for replacement suggestions, but if you have any (with links even better) I'd love to hear em! I am hand bleeding them. I've heard about reverse bleeding, but I have not tried that yet and don't have any tools for that, but might be able to borrow some. As far as the oil goes I grabbed the 10w50 bc from a local moto shop bc I couldn't find any 10w60 on the shelves - I'll probably just try to find some online. Any recommended brand?

Thanks again, all.
 

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Motul 7100...this is now the factory fill since AGIP no longer imports to north America.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
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Hi

The hub looks surprisingly worn for so few kms travelled.

You have an aftermarket Oberon clutch slave cylinder which according to their website has a 32mm piston, 2mm greater than standard. This will give you less travel at the slave piston than the standard slave cylinder for any particular amount of master cylinder travel which could contribute to the clutch not freeing properly.

I note from the video that there is a small amount of free soft travel at the lever before it seems that the load comes on. You won't get rid of this free travel entirely but you need to minimise it. When bleeding the master cylinder did you position the handle bars and rotate the master cylinder so that the bleed nipple was at the highest point? I've found that helps to get the last bit of air out with my 2013 RR.

What happens if you adjust the lever further away from the bars? Does that give some more lever travel?

Don't sweat the oil for the amount you will have used, 20/50 is a second choice in the manuals.
 

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2012 f41000rr
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Discussion Starter #12
The hub looks surprisingly worn for so few kms travelled.
Perhaps the previous owner raced/mistreated the bike??

What happens if you adjust the lever further away from the bars? Does that give some more lever travel?
...
When bleeding the master cylinder did you position the handle bars and rotate the master cylinder so that the bleed nipple was at the highest point?
The lever is adjusted to its maximum farthest position, afaict. Appreciate the info re: slave cylinder. I did try moving the handlebars and that didn't seem to help. When my buddy was helping me I was able to lift the container used to catch the fluid above the master cylinder while we bled since there were an extra set of hands - when we did that and bled at the MC there was some foam. We kept bleeding until it was clear, but no change.

Does anyone know the exact measurements of the clutch travel? i.e. how far out should the pressure plate extend when the clutch is depressed, etc
 

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2012 f41000rr
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Discussion Starter #13
Also curious how difficult it is for any of you without clutch problems to move the rear wheel by hand in 1st with clutch depressed. Obvs not apples to apples, but my 2005 CBR600rr the rear wheel moves w/o resistance by hand, and when on a rear stand with the engine on in 1st clutch depressed the wheel is motionless, whereas the MV it starts flyin and reads 5-10mph on speedo
 

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Hi Code If the after market Slave isnt the problem isnt the cause of your problem it definatly is adding to it . They always make them at least 1ml larger which make clutch pull very easy but in my experiance has created clutch creep every time i have installed an after market slave cylinder. Including my 2007 F41000r which i went from a 27ml to a 28 ml OBERON unit. Made clutch practically useless. BEFORE YOU GO NUTS CHANGING CLUTCH PLATES ECT GET OEM SLAVE CYLINDER.
 

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2012 f41000rr
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Discussion Starter #15
...did you take note of the smaller and larger spacer-rings (4 & 5) and how their installation sequence? - Not the regular rings. If these were incorrectly installed, the clutch doesn't quite disengage correctly.
Checked the spacer rings tonight - they appear to have been installed correctly with the beveled ring facing inwards.

Since the hub is clearly toast and needs to go anyways, I think I'm gonna try and find + install at least a replacement hub (if not an entire replacement clutch set) then see how things are after that. Will keep you all posted in case this could be helpful for someone else!
 

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Also curious how difficult it is for any of you without clutch problems to move the rear wheel by hand in 1st with clutch depressed. Obvs not apples to apples, but my 2005 CBR600rr the rear wheel moves w/o resistance by hand, and when on a rear stand with the engine on in 1st clutch depressed the wheel is motionless, whereas the MV it starts flyin and reads 5-10mph on speedo
Well my 2013 F4RR failed that test! I couldn't move the rear wheel (although I was one handed) with the bike on the stand, in first gear, engine not running and clutch pulled in. With the bike on the ground, in first gear, clutch pulled in, engine not running, it was obvious the clutch was binding and difficult to move. Shuffling the bike back and forward a few cm did free the clutch and it could then be pushed fairly easily.

It has done 40,000km. The clutch was removed during warranty work, I wonder if those spacer rings were refitted correctly, it has always been a bit noisy going into first gear. Do these bikes actually have slipper clutches? It looks quite simple in the parts book and manual.
 

Wing Nut
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It is quite normal for modern clutch plates to stick together when first released by lifting the pressure plate (pulling in the clutch lever).
I make it a habit to pull the lever, once the engine is running, and roll the bike backwards just a bit before engaging a gear. This breaks the cold oil friction sticking the plates together.

Oil has quite a high friction point on clutch plates.
 
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It always had a bit of a crunch going into first gear but it is beyond that now, more of a crash, as in train crash!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
OK I've got parts coming in this week - will follow up when I've got everything back together again. Wish me luck! 馃
 

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What have you got coming?
 
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