[deepMachine]

Hello Friends,
I have seen lots of issues posted regarding the click sound when trying to crank up, and most people ending up buying new batteries.

Unfortunately, I am going through the same. But there is a confusion.

The first time I had this issue, I simply purchased a "Battery Maintainer" from Walmart, and left it on charge, and in the morning, Voila! it cranked up just fine. Took it out for ride, battery got charged, and took it out again the next day. Soon after, came the cold weather, couldn't dare to take it out, but felt worry-free as the maintainer was on, and the green light kept flashing; showing that battery is charged and its maintaining it.

And then, a couple of weeks ago, tried to to take it out, and Darn- The click sound again. And Mr. Maintainer was showing the green flashing light a moment before My failed try. Disconnected/reconnected and left it for charge over night, and the same issue next morning.

Decided to return the stupid maintainer and purchased a Die-Hard Charger/Engine Starter with 80 CCA. This is something fancy. The microprocessor first desulphates prior to charging. And behold, I got an error code on Mr. Bruce Willis. Consulted the manual, and the error code 'F02' shows that Mr. Willis failed to desulphate the battery and the battery is bad.

Unfortunately, I don't have slopes around here so that I could do the 2nd gear thing. The only option I have left is to use Mr. Willis as engine starter.

Finally, my question... would 80CCA suffice the start or will it be too much for the starter? I couldn't find out anywhere about the max input Amps for the starter on this F4. Don't want to damage the electrical system even though, they say to attach the black terminal somewhere on the frame and not the battery. Currently installed Yuasa shows google results of 190 CCA. So I think its safe?

Need your expert opinion before I screw my Black beauty up.

Thanks Guys.

 

[Op347]

Battery is bad. Mine would should show fully charged on maintainer and had enough power to power dash, and lights but would not turn over. The battery is not charging to capacity anymore but the maintainer believes it is since it tops off but the battery is topping off a half charge. Mine would not even start when I tried jumping it. New battery and she's back to normal.

 

[silentservice703]

AS many have said in other threads about batteries: Take your battery to a local auto parts store and have it load tested. That will tell you the capacity of your battery and its condition. Your battery has probably reached the end of its normal service life and needs to be replaced.

Now for the Public Service Message:

Many people have installed batteries incorrectly. This results in reverse polarity and damage to the electrical circuits in the bike.

The batteries in these machines are installed lying on their sides with the NEGATIVE (-) pole FORWARD.
There are also multiple wire connections on each terminal post.
Ensure you orient the battery correctly and connect the wiring as it was.

Taking a picture or two before starting the project helps.
The information in the Service Manual is also very good at illustrating the connections.

 

[deepMachine]

Thanks Op347.

So you think that it won't start no matter how you jump it?

 

[silentservice703]

On the technical side, your starter will only draw the amps it needs to turn over the load on machine. If your bike is in a "locked rotor" condition, the amps will peak at the max of whatever your supply can give. At that point one of two things will happen: 1. a breaker will trip inside the supply unit, or 2. wiring somewhere will give out as the heat (I X I X R) generated exceeds tolerance.

 

[deepMachine]

On the technical side, your starter will only draw the amps it needs to turn over the load on machine. If your bike is in a "locked rotor" condition, the amps will peak at the max of whatever your supply can give. At that point one of two things will happen: 1. a breaker will trip inside the supply unit, or 2. wiring somewhere will give out as the heat (I X I X R) generated exceeds tolerance.

Thanks my friend. I'll see what my options are and will get back here

 

[Op347]

Thanks Op347.

So you think that it won't start no matter how you jump it?

All batteries are different, but in my case I tried jumping it with two different jumper boxes and it wouldn't turn over. The lights got brighter indicating more power was being supplied but it just wouldn't turn over. I tried leaving jumpers on for an hour as well testing to see if that would help but no good. Had batteries plus test battery and it had reached the end of its life. New battery and she's back to normal.. That was the first time i had a dead battery not jump start so I figured it just quit taking any kind of charge at all..

 

[esq'z me]

2 Bits of advice......

1 - Get a GOOD motorcycle battery maintainer.... the green DelTran Battery Tender JR is not one of those.
I recommend (as do all the major motorcycle manufacturers now) a NOCO Genius battery charger/tender. Get the 1100 model.
I used to be a big Optimate fan, but the NOCO Genius is modern solid state stuff and doesn't use a transformer like the older stuff....that means it makes less heat, can be sealed/waterproof, and uses less electricity to do the job (full wave instead of half wave rectification).

2 - Your starter motor initial cranking current draw will be upwards of 110 amps. Once the engine is spinning the continuous current draw will be something like 60~80 amps. Your DieHard may or may not have what it takes to get the engine spinning....but you also need additional current to run the fuel pump and ECU, otherwise the engine still won't start. This is why some bikes won't start using a jumper when there is a completely dead battery installed in the bike. That dead battery absorbs too much of the available reserve.


Oh, one other thing...don't cheap out on your battery. You will get what you pay for.

 

[silentservice703]

All batteries are different, but in my case I tried jumping it with two different jumper boxes and it wouldn't turn over. The lights got brighter indicating more power was being supplied but it just wouldn't turn over. I tried leaving jumpers on for an hour as well testing to see if that would help but no good. Had batteries plus test battery and it had reached the end of its life. New battery and she's back to normal.. That was the first time i had a dead battery not jump start so I figured it just quit taking any kind of charge at all..

Once your battery has sulfated to the point of not having enough chemical reaction left to produce electricity, it becomes a HUGE load on the system. It takes tremendous energy to pass sufficient current through a dead battery and that kills your voltage to the point of being too low to allow the bike to start.

That extra current also produces tremendous heat ... get a new, good quality battery and install it correctly. Your problems will be over for another five to ten years.

 

[Op347]

2 Bits of advice......

1 - Get a GOOD motorcycle battery maintainer.... the green DelTran Battery Tender JR is not one of those.
I recommend (as do all the major motorcycle manufacturers now) a NOCO Genius battery charger/tender. Get the 1100 model.
I used to be a big Optimate fan, but the NOCO Genius is modern solid state stuff and doesn't use a transformer like the older stuff....that means it makes less heat, can be sealed/waterproof, and uses less electricity to do the job (full wave instead of half wave rectification).

2 - Your starter motor initial cranking current draw will be upwards of 110 amps. Once the engine is spinning the continuous current draw will be something like 60~80 amps. Your DieHard may or may not have what it takes to get the engine spinning....but you also need additional current to run the fuel pump and ECU, otherwise the engine still won't start. This is why some bikes won't start using a jumper when there is a completely dead battery installed in the bike. That dead battery absorbs too much of the available reserve.


Oh, one other thing...don't cheap out on your battery. You will get what you pay for.

Thank you sir for the info, good to know. +1 on the battery. I replaced with a yuasa. My dealer wanted 165.00 Just for the battery! I paid 99.00 for the same yuasa battery from batteries plus. It's definitely pays to shop around but definitely buy a trusted brand if you want to get 3 to 4 years out of it.

 

[deepMachine]

2 Bits of advice......

1 - Get a GOOD motorcycle battery maintainer.... the green DelTran Battery Tender JR is not one of those.
I recommend (as do all the major motorcycle manufacturers now) a NOCO Genius battery charger/tender. Get the 1100 model.
I used to be a big Optimate fan, but the NOCO Genius is modern solid state stuff and doesn't use a transformer like the older stuff....that means it makes less heat, can be sealed/waterproof, and uses less electricity to do the job (full wave instead of half wave rectification).

2 - Your starter motor initial cranking current draw will be upwards of 110 amps. Once the engine is spinning the continuous current draw will be something like 60~80 amps. Your DieHard may or may not have what it takes to get the engine spinning....but you also need additional current to run the fuel pump and ECU, otherwise the engine still won't start. This is why some bikes won't start using a jumper when there is a completely dead battery installed in the bike. That dead battery absorbs too much of the available reserve.


Oh, one other thing...don't cheap out on your battery. You will get what you pay for.

Hey man, thanks for the detailed response. Makes all the sense. Where did you get the 110amps from? Just curious.

Is Shorai a good battery? it currently has Yuasa. Back in August when I purchased the bike, they told me that they had put in a new battery. So Iguess, no more yuasa

 

[esq'z me]

Yuasa is the industry standard for quality lead acid batteries. I use them in everything I own except the track bike. Lola has a Shorai, for weight purposes only. I have had Yuasa AGM batteries last 8 years.

Shorai is a good battery, but you should buy their dedicated charger to go with it.

Another high quality light weight Lithium battery on the market is the EarthX. American made by an ex-NASA engineer. The circuitry to balance the cells is built into the battery so you don't need a special charger. Check it out at earthxmotorsports.com

The 110 amp is a measurement I have seen when testing starting systems on bikes. Some pull much more than that. little bikes a lot less. It is teh start-up current draw and only momentary. Once spinning, if the engine doesn't start, the continuous draw will usually be around 60 amps

 

[deepMachine]

Ahh...
But then, isn't Shorai a new standard that everyone wants to follow in the industry for their uniquely designed cells, which don't let battery discharge of longer period of times? I was reading about their Lithium Iron, compared to industry's lead-acid. Pretty impressive. But is there one for my F4?

 

[Gearhead]

Battery Tender has their own lithium ion battery, w/built in electronics so no special charger $135 for F4.
http://batterytender.com/battery_info/

Ed

 

[esq'z me]

Shorai is only one of many. They are the current big fish in the pond. Their technology is not that unique and many are NOT following them (see EarthX for example).

Yes, they have one for your MV (I have one in my SPR). They are NOT the standard, just the best known.

The various Lithium battery technologies are still relatively new and improvements are being made frequently (think Boeing Dream Liner).

 

[esq'z me]

Battery Tender has their own lithium ion battery, w/built in electronics so no special charger $135 for F4.
http://batterytender.com/battery_info/

Ed

Actually, they do have a special battery charger they recommend. They have the same restrictions as Shorai. Read their FAQs

 

[Donsy]

Going to a Lithium battery and it's specific design's and constructions (of which there are many), open's a whole different can of worms.

Do your background research before you buy, there's quite a few different threads on this topic on the forum in the Maintenance section. Shorai is Chinese manufactured and have come a long way with quality control, there is USA manufactured Ballistic which I use as a jumper battery - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0QGNZwir4U I got mine from Motovation USA with the charger which also works on the Shorai,
and http://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/ also Racing which I use as well http://www.racingbatteries.co.uk/ and got from Design Corse, then http://www.fullspectrumpower.com/ which I think Alex at GP racing sells.

There's more, but basically you break them down into 3 categories.

1. Type of Lithium Cell construction, there is more than one, and this makes big difference in safety and strength, it's still a developing science and obviously some companies have been at it for some time.

2. Construction, and is again in divided into three groups a. Lithium cells wired in a case, can be charged with bike alternator or car battery, but not with a regular charger which has de-sulphonating mode. These are the cheapest.
b. Lithium cells built and wired into a case, but cells also wired to an additional port allowing for a periodical balancing charge of individual cells using an specific external charge. This is most common option.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3cuBUF9-eY&feature=related
c. Lithium cells wired into a case with an internally constructed balancing charge and balance system. These are often the most expensive, but cost the same as buying a Lithium battery with optional charger.

3. Case construction, thin heat shrink wrap is not the best, these batteries are high and low temp sensitive. Batteries in a hard case is much more temp stable.

And remember, as many members have found out, these thing have a completely different starting characteristic to lead acid units.
Watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBfvR1EJJBk

If you're not sure, just get a new Yuasa.

 

[deepMachine]

Battery Tender has their own lithium ion battery, w/built in electronics so no special charger $135 for F4.
http://batterytender.com/battery_info/

Ed

Oh hmm... That's Nice.

Ok, I went there looking for F4, and found this 14Ah with 240CC for $149.99: http://batterytender.com/products/batteries/lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-lifepo4-la-eq-10-14.html

...compared to a Shorai 19Ah with 285CC for $199:
http://shoraipower.com/products?action=vehicle&type=175&make=1463&model=8028&year=8028

I didn't see that battery tender had a built-in charger, if that's what you meant.

Thanks for pitching in. Much appreciated.

 

[deepMachine]

Shorai is only one of many. They are the current big fish in the pond. Their technology is not that unique and many are NOT following them (see EarthX for example).

Yes, they have one for your MV (I have one in my SPR). They are NOT the standard, just the best known.

The various Lithium battery technologies are still relatively new and improvements are being made frequently (think Boeing Dream Liner).

Yea I agree. I have started to find many other Mfrs doing the same. I am now concerned about built-in charger. That would be nice as Gearhead mentioned

 

[deepMachine]

Going to a Lithium battery and it's specific design's and constructions (of which there are many), open's a whole different can of worms.

Do your background research before you buy, there's quite a few different threads on this topic on the forum in the Maintenance section. Shorai is Chinese manufactured and have come a long way with quality control, there is USA manufactured Ballistic which I use as a jumper battery - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0QGNZwir4U I got mine from Motovation USA with the charger which also works on the Shorai,
and http://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/ also Racing which I use as well http://www.racingbatteries.co.uk/ and got from Design Corse, then http://www.fullspectrumpower.com/ which I think Alex at GP racing sells.

There's more, but basically you break them down into 3 categories.

1. Type of Lithium Cell construction, there is more than one, and this makes big difference in safety and strength, it's still a developing science and obviously some companies have been at it for some time.

2. Construction, and is again in divided into three groups a. Lithium cells wired in a case, can be charged with bike alternator or car battery, but not with a regular charger which has de-sulphonating mode. These are the cheapest.
b. Lithium cells built and wired into a case, but cells also wired to an additional port allowing for a periodical balancing charge of individual cells using an specific external charge. This is most common option.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3cuBUF9-eY&feature=related
c. Lithium cells wired into a case with an internally constructed balancing charge and balance system. These are often the most expensive, but cost the same as buying a Lithium battery with optional charger.

3. Case construction, thin heat shrink wrap is not the best, these batteries are high and low temp sensitive. Batteries in a hard case is much more temp stable.

And remember, as many members have found out, these thing have a completely different starting characteristic to lead acid units.
Watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBfvR1EJJBk

If you're not sure, just get a new Yuasa.

Woah! lotsa info. I guess Ballistic don't have my battery
http://www.ballisticparts.com/products/batteries/batteries.php

Thanks for sharing.