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post #411 of 470 (permalink) Old 10-31-2019, 12:55 PM
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Nito, I myself(as many others in all the EU countries) have grave concerns and fears about where the EU project is heading.
It is a highly complex project with lots of potential, great risks and even greater questions to be asked and ponder.

There is certainly a lot of teratogenesis. And many problems identified by Brexit supporters are valid and worth of serious, deep discussion all over Europe and the western world I would say. As expected, it never happened. Just silly polarization and conflicting interests.

But to say that the main driver of Brexit was (the EU) democratic deficiency...I don't know. Especially you Brits have your own sets of myths, narratives and collective delusions to battle me thinks.
You are correct on all points. It was a big driver in the UK, not necessarily the democratic deficiency of the EU, but the thought of supremacy of the EU over the UK, that and of course the fact that UK was one of three countries granting unrestricted access from new joining members, 10 I think in the early '00's. An expected influx of 13,000 turned into 500,000 with no controls. Again, this was a UK issue, our government didn't react and more importantly prepare for it, for the electorate, leaving the EU also means stemming this and Nigel Farage's successes are a representation of that demographic to which he appeals and it is the uglier side of Brexit.

As you point out however, these are issues that aren't going to go away, they need to be discussed openly, it can't be ignored, the country is split and people dig themselves in, but the reality is that it requires a huge effort to bridge these differences, it's no good shouting people down, calling them idiots, everyone has their fears, for some, it's the economy, uncertainty, immigration, the NHS, investment pouring out or in and taking over, sovereignty and democracy but ultimately, if there was scope to influence and reform the EU then it would be worth persevering with, unfortunately the EU forces are dogmatic in their vision, even in light of Brexit, they see the opportunity for the EU project, as the handbrake that has always been the UK has finally been released and they can now proceed full steam ahead with the goal of even further integration.

We in the UK, never had a referendum on any treaty. Many EU countries put the EU treaties out to referendum. We didn't get the opportunity with Maastricht nor Lisbon. This is a deficiency with our own government. Although we have no written constitution per se, we have many founding principles and in a way it has been better for us to remain slightly fluid, however the onset of the EU brought about tests that were unanticipated and unprecedented. So where John Major should have gone to the people, he didn't. The same for Gordon Brown with Lisbon. Parliament was Sovereign and could do what it liked with it's temporal powers granted unto it by the people, the thought that Parliament could use those temporal powers to cede supremacy to a foreign entity was inconceivable, therefore no safeguards existed, whereas more modern democracies had their written constitutions demanding referenda on such a matter. The mere thought that 48% of voters can find this totally acceptable now genuinely astounds me. So in the referendum of 2016, we finally had our say on the EU.
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post #412 of 470 (permalink) Old 10-31-2019, 02:17 PM
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If the EU is that confusing to you (Nito) then its no wonder you dont trust it. Youre obviously choosing to willfully ignorant and call a propaganda movie a "documentary" then there isnt much point in attempting to educate you seeing as how you used a lot of words to say complete and utter rubbish. With gold nuggets like, "The conveniently confusingly named European Council" its obvious you have your mind made up and will create whatever "facts" or "logic" you need to support that.

You do you, people like you make me not feel bad knowing my profits coming from speculations come from your retirement accounts. I don't feel bad for people who willingly make idiotic choices (including forming information bubbles to support their biases).
There are no untruths in that 'propaganda movie' if we're into semantics, it's non fictional and educational, I'll stick with documentary regardless of who has posted it. I guarantee you that I know more than 99% of the UK population regarding the workings of the EU, I have been following it for years and I'm about the only person I know that has read the Lisbon treaty text cover to cover! Having read law and business at University College London I think I am also fairly well educated and qualified to understand the implications both in law and in business. You are correct that my mind is pretty made up, not from a position of 'ignorance' I would argue.

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post #413 of 470 (permalink) Old 10-31-2019, 06:40 PM
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This is an interesting conversation.

There are a few different interpretations of 'democracy', for it to work properly the citizenry need to engage and participate in the process. GB rates quite high on the democracy index below, given the house of lords is not what I would call democratic. There are a number of EU countries ahead of GB on the index. The USA is listed as a flawed democracy. Probably not their fault. I have read that some of the best examples of localised inclusion and democracy are seen in indigenous societies, Papua New Guinea for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

The EU is a work in progress, about a group of nations with a shared past and future. There is always someone, usually without any particular merit or originality to their thinking and language, who will try and gain some traction with their 'we are unique' rhetroic. I wonder if a lot of Europeans have forgotten their individual national pasts, matters like where a great deal of their national wealth came from, and how that wealth was earned. By imposing themselves on others, at the point of a gun.
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post #414 of 470 (permalink) Old 11-01-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Nito View Post
There are no untruths in that 'propaganda movie' if we're into semantics, it's non fictional and educational, I'll stick with documentary regardless of who has posted it. I guarantee you that I know more than 99% of the UK population regarding the workings of the EU, I have been following it for years and I'm about the only person I know that has read the Lisbon treaty text cover to cover! Having read law and business at University College London I think I am also fairly well educated and qualified to understand the implications both in law and in business. You are correct that my mind is pretty made up, not from a position of 'ignorance' I would argue.

Cheers
Nito
A. You dont know what a documentary is, that is obviously plain. And that isnt semantics, that is knowing the literal meaning of an english word. And there arent facts, that is marketing from a pro-brexit party asking pro-brexit politicians their OPINIONS. A documentary, just for your own edification, is a non-fiction piece intented to document events that have happened. What you have posted is an op-ed. The reason you insist on calling that is you want to give it validity to justify your biases. Its the same thing the Trump camp is doing here.

B. You might actually know more than 99% of the UK, but that doesn't appear to be saying much seeing as how they all fell for the things that are now well known lies of UKIP. It appears the electorate is ENTIRELY willfully ignorant on the matter. Also, just so you know, your guarantees mean nothing to me. Donald Trump guaranteed he has a "good brain" and he is a moron. Thanks to Dunning–Kruger we now know that its more likely based on your guarantee that you DONT know what you are talking about.

C. Nothing you have said refutes any of my statements. The EU isnt some sort of obfuscated hieroglyph. Its a representative form of govt like virtually any other western forms, you're really talking about sovereignty lost not democracy lost. At least be honest, you dont like being the minority vote.

Also, if you were nito esq then you would know the importance of getting the definition correct.


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post #415 of 470 (permalink) Old 11-01-2019, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MacStrine View Post
This is an interesting conversation.

There are a few different interpretations of 'democracy', for it to work properly the citizenry need to engage and participate in the process. GB rates quite high on the democracy index below, given the house of lords is not what I would call democratic. There are a number of EU countries ahead of GB on the index. The USA is listed as a flawed democracy. Probably not their fault. I have read that some of the best examples of localised inclusion and democracy are seen in indigenous societies, Papua New Guinea for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

The EU is a work in progress, about a group of nations with a shared past and future. There is always someone, usually without any particular merit or originality to their thinking and language, who will try and gain some traction with their 'we are unique' rhetroic. I wonder if a lot of Europeans have forgotten their individual national pasts, matters like where a great deal of their national wealth came from, and how that wealth was earned. By imposing themselves on others, at the point of a gun.
Or largest flaw is the utilization of a first past the post system, especially with respect to the executive branch. We will always be trapped in a two-party system this way, no matter how hard a 3rd party tries the system isnt designed for it. We would be better adopting the systems popular in germanic countries as they are far more likely to require coalitions.

The problem is our system is dated. It was developed when we were a sparsely populated nation covering the 3rd largest land mass. We should get rid of dated mechanisms like the electoral college, technology has "shrank" our nation to the point its ready. Not going to happen any time soon though as we will need the boomers to die off, they wont allow it. They cant handle the rapid pace of change and are too busy identifying with their (misunderstood) past to tolerate any more.


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post #416 of 470 (permalink) Old 11-01-2019, 08:51 AM
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A. You dont know what a documentary is, that is obviously plain. And that isnt semantics, that is knowing the literal meaning of an english word. And there arent facts, that is marketing from a pro-brexit party asking pro-brexit politicians their OPINIONS. A documentary, just for your own edification, is a non-fiction piece intented to document events that have happened. What you have posted is an op-ed. The reason you insist on calling that is you want to give it validity to justify your biases. Its the same thing the Trump camp is doing here.

B. You might actually know more than 99% of the UK, but that doesn't appear to be saying much seeing as how they all fell for the things that are now well known lies of UKIP. It appears the electorate is ENTIRELY willfully ignorant on the matter. Also, just so you know, your guarantees mean nothing to me. Donald Trump guaranteed he has a "good brain" and he is a moron. Thanks to Dunning–Kruger we now know that its more likely based on your guarantee that you DONT know what you are talking about.

C. Nothing you have said refutes any of my statements. The EU isnt some sort of obfuscated hieroglyph. Its a representative form of govt like virtually any other western forms, you're really talking about sovereignty lost not democracy lost. At least be honest, you dont like being the minority vote.

Also, if you were nito esq then you would know the importance of getting the definition correct.
Whatever, pretty much anything you watch or read is biased one way or the other. There is context and perspective in all of this and there is a certain amount of filtering required in everything, you prefer to shut down debate calling those who voted for Brexit 'idiotic', persisting with lines like "fell for the things that are well known lies of UKIP" to validate your arguments. Insinuating that I'm a moron and ignorant because I disagree with you does not advance the debate and never will. Everything I wrote on the functioning of the EU law making processes a page or so back is factual and I set that out for the benefit of those who may be unaware of how it works and how indirect the 'democracy' and creation of law is and although maybe clear to you, it simply isn't for many. Those who create the law are not elected by the people nor deselect-able. People can make their own minds up about what type of democracy they want.

It is not the democracy that we have enjoyed in the UK for generations, the direction of the EU is a departure from that, for better or worse. That's a fact. We now have an opportunity to address it. You are correct, I personally don't like being a minority vote, effectively my vote is meaningless, to me that is a very real loss of democracy. I have to accept whatever law gets passed down without having any actual say in how those laws are made or how my taxes will be spent. Somehow, I feel like I am working for them, as opposed to them representing me. I am not a practising lawyer btw and I am not trying to refute any of your statements, it seems that anyone who voted for Brexit has to justify themselves, I respect others opinions, but generally as seems the case, it can be a very unilateral thing.

One has to be comfortable with the direction of the EU when it is to be your future. I don't like what has happened in the last 20 years, and I really don't like the direction its headed for the next 20. And while we're here, how about the economy side of the argument? I'm not down with protectionism to pay farmers to keep fields fallow, or throw dead fish back in the sea, or promoting diesel as they did so many years ago (against the advice of various motoring bodies) that air quality has taken such a hit, or printing 3 trillion euro's in quantitative easing, negative bond yields, bailing out countries and banks and anyone else being rewarded for behaving irresponsibly and in an unsustainable fashion.

Savers have taken huge hits, while borrowers are rewarded so they can pour money into sub prime over inflated asset bubbles and drive 'growth' leaving everyone else to pick up the shit when they pop and that's not just the EU but the system works to keep the economy running on 'credit fuelled' booms and further supports globalisation by creating regulatory barriers to entry for any smaller businesses. At some point the bill comes due, it will be a big bill in the EU, every economy is pretty much in recession, so it's not so wonderful really. Thank goodness we retained our own currency so that it can do what it must to balance things out, rather than suffering as so many Europeans have. I worked in Italy during the transition from Lira to Euro and it is nowhere near the same country now that it was when I left and the same can be said for much of the EU member states.
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post #417 of 470 (permalink) Old 11-01-2019, 10:53 AM
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.............


Thank goodness we retained our own currency so that it can do what it must to balance things out, rather than suffering as so many Europeans have. I worked in Italy during the transition from Lira to Euro and it is nowhere near the same country now that it was when I left and the same can be said for much of the EU member states.

What happened to Italy's economy is appalling. It is a great example.

Granted EU policies are not to be blamed for everything but there are certainly liable for a lot. And the dark, sinister I would say role that Germany played/plays.

Many pompous, consequential EU characters like to completely dismiss the latter as populism/conspiracy theory. Nobody dares to address the subject openly in a serious, deep manner although many people in the know and in position understand very well the severity of the issue. Naturally, it falls in the dirty hands and mouths of true populists that shit it all over the place. Which is of course convenient for many.


I dare to still believe in the EU project. I don't really think you(UK) ever really tried Nito. I wish you did. You never escaped the old British mentality.

Only by the fact you leave the rest of us alone with the Germans....you are unforgivable
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post #418 of 470 (permalink) Old 11-01-2019, 12:15 PM
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When I was in Italy, I remember the Italians being delighted because they joined the Euro with a strong Lira, which gave the people fantastic buying power. All of a sudden, the Audi's, BMW's and Mercedes that were previously unattainable became a reality, and very soon they were everywhere. And then they saw the flipside, while others also joined the Euro with strong currencies it powered and fuelled the German export market. It was a very clever move by them as the DM was 'weak' by comparison. Japan only wishes it could devalue its currency so effectively!

Of course it decimated Italian sales in their home market as well as exports by making them far more expensive which badly knocked Italian manufacture and industry. I worked on a factory floor there for a while, when I came back to visit the friends I'd made it was apparent that in very little time things were not good for them and they were all moaning.

It's true the UK retained its independence largely throughout, we were always the handbrake for the European project, we were never committed to the European project as a people and the referendum brings that out, I have never considered myself to be European, yet I love Europe, just not the European Union. I feel every country has been diminished my its EU membership, robbing them of their soul and indentity, leaving a hollow shell of their former selves. Without the UK, the EU will be steered by the Franco German contingent, Macron clearly relishes the opportunity like a circling vulture to buddy up close to Germany. They say the UK was one foot in and one foot out. I'd agree.

When push comes to shove we voted to take both feet out, we'll see what the election now holds. For better or worse, and as exasperating as it has been to watch, our political 'system' has performed well in dealing with such a complex issue, there has been some massive subversion and underhand gameplay by remainer MP's subverting and sabotaging Brexit, it is telling that so many are now standing down at the election. Had this not been the case and the players committed to their manifesto pledges, a better deal entirely could have been worked on, the deals have been a massive failure of TM's government also, trying to deliver a remain Brexit, instead, leaving a convoluted and contrived agreement. There could have been better alternatives and I don't fear a no deal outcome.

The UK has always been a safe haven with a political and legal system that provides confidence to investors. While so many talk the UK and the £ down, there has been a huge influx of foreign investment, it's not pleasing to see the country being bought up, but in our position of 'weakness' as so many of our remain politicians have kept deriding, clearly the markets feel there are rewards to be made or they wouldn't have invested. Google's new HQ at St.Pancras is a shining beacon of that. Out with the bankers in with the tech companies.

I would love to see Italy and Spain follow suit. I think Italy would be tempted, I don't think Spain would.

Frankly, how can one size fit all? Is it better for a country to be pooling its sovereignty with 28 others than looking after its own interests? The EU tries to redistribute commerce; so these people do farming, these people make cars etc etc, so each country loses a large portion of a certain industry and ceases to be self sufficient, relying on imports to pick up where protectionism has prevented it from continuing with its own produce.

Eventually, so much must be imported, relying on a huge freight infrastructure creating mass environmental impact, when it could be fresh and home produced. For what? A reduction in costs, or 'free trade' deals. Duty under WTO is f'all in the scheme of things a couple of % here or there and those rates would be set by us for imports, and cheapest rarely means best or even value. For us in the UK to be importing meat from the other side of the world because it's cheaper, frozen, well travelled, processed with special freezing and packaging techniques that close up all the pores to prevent bacteria so it can last longer but be tasteless in the process etc is plain stupid when it can be produced on our shores. Lack of economies of scale make our home market uncompetitive. There is a lot wrong with the EU. Frictionless trade and movement could have been achievable without controlling, undermining and reigning supreme over every member states self governance and the pretence that it's people have in any way any control over their futures when decisions are not made by anyone that is actually elected. God forbid when the rot and corruption sets in and they have an army and peace keeping force, or they raise taxes to cover their huge economic mismanagement. The European accounts have still not been signed off by the European court of auditors for the last 19 years.

some more of my 2p
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post #419 of 470 (permalink) Old 11-01-2019, 01:32 PM
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When I was in Italy, I remember the Italians being delighted because they joined the Euro with a strong Lira, which gave the people fantastic buying power. All of a sudden, the Audi's, BMW's and Mercedes that were previously unattainable became a reality, and very soon they were everywhere. And then they saw the flipside, while others also joined the Euro with strong currencies it powered and fuelled the German export market. It was a very clever move by them as the DM was 'weak' by comparison. Japan only wishes it could devalue its currency so effectively!

Of course it decimated Italian sales in their home market as well as exports by making them far more expensive which badly knocked Italian manufacture and industry. I worked on a factory floor there for a while, when I came back to visit the friends I'd made it was apparent that in very little time things were not good for them and they were all moaning.

It's true the UK retained its independence largely throughout, we were always the handbrake for the European project, we were never committed to the European project as a people and the referendum brings that out, I have never considered myself to be European, yet I love Europe, just not the European Union. I feel every country has been diminished my its EU membership, robbing them of their soul and indentity, leaving a hollow shell of their former selves. Without the UK, the EU will be steered by the Franco German contingent, Macron clearly relishes the opportunity like a circling vulture to buddy up close to Germany. They say the UK was one foot in and one foot out. I'd agree.

When push comes to shove we voted to take both feet out, we'll see what the election now holds. For better or worse, and as exasperating as it has been to watch, our political 'system' has performed well in dealing with such a complex issue, there has been some massive subversion and underhand gameplay by remainer MP's subverting and sabotaging Brexit, it is telling that so many are now standing down at the election. Had this not been the case and the players committed to their manifesto pledges, a better deal entirely could have been worked on, the deals have been a massive failure of TM's government also, trying to deliver a remain Brexit, instead, leaving a convoluted and contrived agreement. There could have been better alternatives and I don't fear a no deal outcome.

The UK has always been a safe haven with a political and legal system that provides confidence to investors. While so many talk the UK and the £ down, there has been a huge influx of foreign investment, it's not pleasing to see the country being bought up, but in our position of 'weakness' as so many of our remain politicians have kept deriding, clearly the markets feel there are rewards to be made or they wouldn't have invested. Google's new HQ at St.Pancras is a shining beacon of that. Out with the bankers in with the tech companies.

I would love to see Italy and Spain follow suit. I think Italy would be tempted, I don't think Spain would.

Frankly, how can one size fit all? Is it better for a country to be pooling its sovereignty with 28 others than looking after its own interests? The EU tries to redistribute commerce; so these people do farming, these people make cars etc etc, so each country loses a large portion of a certain industry and ceases to be self sufficient, relying on imports to pick up where protectionism has prevented it from continuing with its own produce.

Eventually, so much must be imported, relying on a huge freight infrastructure creating mass environmental impact, when it could be fresh and home produced. For what? A reduction in costs, or 'free trade' deals. Duty under WTO is f'all in the scheme of things a couple of % here or there and those rates would be set by us for imports, and cheapest rarely means best or even value. For us in the UK to be importing meat from the other side of the world because it's cheaper, frozen, well travelled, processed with special freezing and packaging techniques that close up all the pores to prevent bacteria so it can last longer but be tasteless in the process etc is plain stupid when it can be produced on our shores. Lack of economies of scale make our home market uncompetitive. There is a lot wrong with the EU. Frictionless trade and movement could have been achievable without controlling, undermining and reigning supreme over every member states self governance and the pretence that it's people have in any way any control over their futures when decisions are not made by anyone that is actually elected. God forbid when the rot and corruption sets in and they have an army and peace keeping force, or they raise taxes to cover their huge economic mismanagement. The European accounts have still not been signed off by the European court of auditors for the last 19 years.

some more of my 2p

I hear you Nito.
Loss of culture, diversity and consequently freedom within the EU is my biggest fear(and of many others).

Spain would not be the 1st to take the step out, but if Italy goes...then it is a whole different ballpark. For the South of Europe in general.
Have a close eye in France too.


That being said, if Italy or France blows up then it's over for the EU. At least as we know it today.
The question is how violently the castle will crumble?

Optimists believe it will happen(if and when) relatively peacefully from the inside, when that monstrous complexity passes a critical point of relevance. Meaning complexity not serving any purpose or the balance being heavily tilted towards structure-ness for the sake of itself. Look at Byzantine or Roman Empires.

Others are more worried about the chaotic dynamics of violence.....


At this point I believe the best outcome is a clean as possible exit of the UK. For both sides.
And I personally wish the UK to be successful outside of the EU for various reasons.
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post #420 of 470 (permalink) Old 11-02-2019, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacStrine View Post
This is an interesting conversation.

There are a few different interpretations of 'democracy', for it to work properly the citizenry need to engage and participate in the process. GB rates quite high on the democracy index below, given the house of lords is not what I would call democratic. There are a number of EU countries ahead of GB on the index. The USA is listed as a flawed democracy. Probably not their fault. I have read that some of the best examples of localised inclusion and democracy are seen in indigenous societies, Papua New Guinea for example.
The USA is a republic not a democracy.......
Papua New Guinea.......
Are you out of your mind????
My best friend on this Forum spent almost 40 years in Papua New Guinea
He described it as 10,000 years ago......outside of the large city everything runs on bribes......
And you carry an assault rifle and pistol all the time......for good reason
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