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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-13-2013, 09:15 AM Thread Starter
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Want opinion of Racers and Race enthusiasts

Hello all, looking into possibility of developing a Unique Race bike for the Superbike or Formula One class and presenting Chassis/Engine package to Race Sanctioning Board. I am Extremely confident the Main stream race fan will love to see a big bore Harley Air Cooled V-Twin powered competitive Superbike package running against the usual Japanese in line 4 cylinder Superbike such as the Suzuki GSXR1000rr, Honda CBR1000RR,Yamaha R1 and Kawasaki ZX10R.

The.. BTR MOTO GP .. A 404lb Trellis Chassis Superbike powered by a Harley Davidson Air Cooled,Twin Cam,V-Twin Engine and 6 speed transmission.
As we all Know the Harley Davidson engine is a very Heavy, low RPM power plant that is about a high tech as your Great Grandfathers 1956 Ford Edsel .
So to Make a Harley twin Cam V-twin engine produce competitive Horsepower the Displacement would have to be roughly 127ci-2100cc and install a Small Turbocharger such as a Variable vain Aerocharger, Garrett GT-15,or a small C-15 Rotrex Supercharger. Even with such Large Displacement and Turbo/Supercharging
a 127ci/2100cc Harley Twin will produce roughly 200HP at the rear wheel VS The Race prepped Japanese Inline 4 cylinder Superbikes which produce roughly 220 HP at the rear wheel.
The BTR Moto would still be at a 20 HP deficit but have a roughly 50 lbs torque advantage.
IMHO a fair trade off. Can a Harley Air Cooled V-Twin with 200 RWHP stay together without exploding for a full race distance ? That's the Engine Builders Job LOL.
IMHO IF LETTING A BIG BORE HARLEY ENGINED SUPERBIKE CAN BRING IN THE MAIN STREAM RACE FAN IT HELPS EVERYONE IN RACING,BOTH RACER AND RACE ENTHUSIAST.Also, the more manufacturers, engine types,chassis types that you have the better and Race engineers CAN
balance different configurations to make a level playing field for all. Look at MV AGUSTA, TRIUMPH & DUCATI in WSS and AMA Supersport racing. 600cc inline 4 cylinder VS 675cc inline 3 Cylinder VS 848cc V-Twin. (high tech/high RPM V-twin) all very different engine configurations yet level performance.
.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR OPINION/INPUT JAKE 318


PICTURE OF BTR MOTO SUPERBIKE made in California
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-13-2013, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
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Moderator ... I Didnt Know Where To Post ? Wanted To Ask Racer & Race Enthusiast
I Know Its Not A Mv Agusta , But Mv Agusta Riders Love Racing .

Btw. Mv Agusta F4 1000rr Racing In Wsbk In 2014 ....phenominal .... !!!
Just Like The F3 675r Did In Wss The Mvf4rr Is Going To Surpise Everyone In Wsbk.
post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-13-2013, 12:25 PM
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Wasn't Buell trying to do something like that?
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-13-2013, 09:21 PM
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Jake, if you can make it happen I would be a fan.....never hurts to have more competitive bikes on the grid

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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2013, 12:31 AM Thread Starter
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Hi Quad ,Ptsalas.... The biggest hurdle is the MISCONSEPTION that for the last decade or so WSBK sanctioning bodies gave DUCATI an unfair displacement advantage that allowed the V-Twin DUCATI to make more Horsepower than the inline 4 Japanese Superbikes. When in reality Ducati was at a DISADVANTAGE .The Ducati 999/1098/1198 had to be 8 kilos heavier (roughly 16 lbs ) restricted to 50 mm throttle bodies . ( THE STOCK 1199 Panegale has 65mm throttle bodies to give measure to severity of restriction)Fact Is , when it comes to making Horsepower The 150cc-200cc of displacement given to V-twins is no way near the inherent advantage of having TWICE the power pulses and the ability to run roughly 4000 -5000 higher RPM . THE JAPANESE INLINE 4 CYLINDER SUPERBIKES ALWAYS ATTAIN HIGHER TOP SPEED/TRAP SPEEDS THAN THE DUCATI SUERBIKES. DUCATI just outworked and out smarted the Japanese manufactures developing a high tech V-twin that had more torque/bottom end power for drive off the corners. By the time the peaky high RPM Japanese inline 4s could make there Superior horse power , the high torque V-Twin Ducati Superbikes had too much of a lead to catch before entering next corner . The V-twin Ducatis did make Good HP,just not as much as the inline 4s.( torque without sufficient HP makes a bike jump off corners then just flatten out )
Ducati realized there are more corners and short/midsize straits that utilized torque than long straits that utilized maximum top end Horse power . So for having an intelligent racing plan they where penalized .
post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2013, 01:15 AM
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my god some one who fully understands what duke and any non jap bike has to go through
who remembers spray and nation on the 500cc ish wankle norton F1's first outings the creamed the field
but as soon as the japs could not compete nortons had restrictions put on reduce cc size to 350 ccish drop the bhp to 3/4 of the jap stuff with the mouth sheene helping the jap jugernaught

Jake the bike looks great sounds like you could be on to a winner but if it wins to many times be prepaired to put square wheels on it

i have a form of dislexia as i have said plenty of time and it dont bother me .................. but im not stupid or a tard so dont try it on


MV Brutale's go faster than a crackheads dole payment and that's fast

I WAS A BIKER BEFORE IT BECAME A FASHION STATEMENT
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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2013, 01:18 AM
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I don't agree with you at all Paul.
In the late 80' and 90's, the Jap bikes where not allowed to run their 1000's or their 1100's against the 888/916/996 bikes, yet it's called Superbikes ? What wins on Sundays sell's on Mondays.
I thought it was Ducati's choice to build V-twins, and if their top model could not keep up with the other brands top models, it's their own choice.
Do you remember when the Ducati's became 1098 and 1198, how the 1000's had to use restrictors?

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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2013, 01:27 AM Thread Starter
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Buell tried to compete in AMA Superbike with the BUELL XBRR FIREBOLT . THE XBRR power plant was a 1320cc Air cooled 45 degree Sportster engine with Duel 65mm throttle bodies that made ... 135 RWHP at 8500 RPM. USING THE SPORTSTER ENGINE WHICH WAS DESIGNED IN THE 1950s THE XBRR HAD NO WAY NEAR ENOUGH DISPLACEMENT TO COMPETE AGAINST THE THEN MODERN JAPANESE INLINE 4CYLINDER SUPERBIKES.
To make matters worse the Buell XBRR 1320 was a time bomb on 2 wheels. Being a 45 degree V-twin
BOTH pistons RISE &FALL together (off by roughly 5 degrees=worse ) Creating MASSIVE internal centrifical forces from attempting to attain an 8500 rpm redline in a desperate attempt to make even semi competitive horsepower. Buell Could not buy/make rods strong enough , and holes in engine blocks the size of baseballs where a common occurrence.

THIS IS WHY 2100cc AND THE ADDITION OF A SMALL GARRETT GT-15 TURBOCHARGER IS NEEDED ON THE BTR MOTO. NOT LOOKING FOR ADVANTAGE , JUST ASKING TO BE COMPETITIVE AGAINST THE MODERN EURO/JAPANESE INLINE/V-4 SUPERBIKE.

EVEN WITH 2100cc and TUBOCHARGING THE BTR MOTO WILL BE DOWN ON HORSEPOWER.

BUT.... THE BTR MOTO 2100 TURBO WILL COME OFF CORNERS & ACCELERATE LIKE NOTHING YOU HAVE EVER SEEN !!!
Hopefully using a set up of a 5000-6000 RPM redline , the large forged pistons/rods/stroker crank will stay inside the cases for the full race distance .LOL All kidding aside , running a 5000-6000 RPM redline
should keep internal forces within design perameters. Using a Very small turbo it will spool (not just spin) at idle. Therefore the engine is ALWAYS on boost. never creating ...Lag.. ( like F1 car.) Also, using a very small turbo that spools at idle in combination with under square stroker V-Twin e makes HP at low rpm.
CAN YOU IMAGINE A AIR COOLED HARLEY v-TWIN RUNNING NOSE TO NOSE WITH TOM SYKES KAWASAKI ZX10RR DOWN A STRAIT?
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2013, 01:34 AM
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It would be nice to see something else compete with the Jap bikes, or inline 4's, oh wait, there is always the V-fours too.
At the end of the day, to me it's Superbikes, so street bike based. In other words, if you sell a 2100 or 1000 to the public, you should be able to race it in that same configuration, or near close enough at least.
Now MV needs to bring out a 1100 F4.

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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2013, 02:49 AM Thread Starter
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Donsey when Ducati first went Superbike racing they approached the AMA in 1986.Ducati was laughed at, the thought of a V-Twin being competitive against an Inline or V-4 was preposterous. No one gave them a fiddlers chance in hell of even getting on a podium , not to mention actually winning a race. Japanese Superbikes where the Kawasaki KZ750,The Suzuki GS750 both air cooled/ inline 4 configurations and the Honda Interceptor, a 750cc liquid cooled V-4 . then thought of as the pinnacle of engine/chassis technology , never to be surpassed. So the Ducati 851 Liquid cooled V-twin Superbike had a displacement advantage of only 100cc. They where ALLOWED to be 20lbs lighter but ended up being only 6 lb lighter as the Ducati steel trellis machine couldn't get down to weight.
This was the case For many years and Ducati didn't win the AMA superbike championship until Doug Polen won the title in 1993 on the Ducati 888. I am not a Ducati enthusiast although I do own a Ducati 1198 and admire Ducati for there underdog spirit in MotoGP and WSBK. Hell HONDA has more employees making handlebars than DUCATI has TOTAL employees.

Donsey if you look back at WSBK trap speeds Ducati was slowest factory bike on the Grid but winning races . 200cc doesnt compare to the inherent advantages of inline 4/V-4 HALF the power pulses , 4000 less RPM .

Yes Ducati makes more torque , but they are down in HP...Its a trade off . Its not Ducatis fault that the WSBK tracks favor torque. As it is the new WSBK tracks have incorporated longer straits .
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