Honda swears it will be victorious - MVAgusta.net
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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Honda swears it will be victorious

During the roughly 1 hour rain and eventual cancellation of the 2nd race at Imola the announcers stated that Honda was greatly embarrassed at the dismal performance of the companies flagship HONDA CBR 1000RR. Normally I would take an announcers statement with a grain of salt BUT I had also read this in Race Engine Technology and they get ALL the info and have never been wrong so far. Honda has stated this embarrassment will end with the CBR 1000RR not just being competitive but becoming the strongest WSBK on the grid by the 2020 Season opener. To achieve this HRC will throw all its engineering might at the CBR 1000RR. Along with an open checkbook policy. I can see the CBR 1000RR matching the Yamaha R1 as our own MV F4RC was on par with the R1 as the MV F4RC handled better than the R1 and the Yamaha R1 had a power small advantage over the MV F4RC After Yamaha MotoGP electronic techs where loaned out to the WSBK team during summer break. BUT for the Honda CBR 1000RR to SURPASS the Kawasaki ZX10RR , Ducatis new V4, AND the sweet handling New BMW S1000RR. If Honda is embarrassed nowhow are they going to look after making such bold predictions and Fail?

PS... Historical note for young members lol.. Honda has made predictions of winning despite the odds before. WAY back in the days of 500cc gran prix racing HONDA predicted they would out engineer the competition and win the 500cc title. 1979 to 1982 Honda designed the NR500 oval piston race bike . 8 , yes 8 valves per cylinder, 2 connecting rods per oval piston and 2 spark plugs per cylinder in a 90 degree v-4. Rider was Fast Freddie Spencer (same unique style as Marquez) The NR500 had monoque chassis and with Spencer as the rider Honda actually won 1 race (belgum) Honda Spent as much money as Yamaha and Suzuki combined every year until the NR500 was moth balled for the v3 2 stroke NS500 that Spencer rode to the title in 1983.

It will be fun seeing how successful the CBR1000RR will be with a HUGE Cubic dollar race engineering budget.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 11:02 PM Thread Starter
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Nigel, your a smart guy and an avid race fan (I am a race engineering/fan/nut lol) I think you would love Race Engine Technology magazine. 9 Isssues a year. They cover all, types of engines , Auto, Motorcycle, Marine, airplane , ALL types of engines Gas diesel, hydrogen electric ect ect. AND they get ALL the info no one else gets. When the Honda V4 was thought to be 75 degrees RET knew it was 90 degree 6 months before . RET gave Ducati V5 bore stroke, valve size RPM redline ect ect Ducati is still only 925cc? Ducati said they wont increase displacement until needed. Its a UK magazine so with subscription its like 7$ an issue I would send you my magazines when im finished but shipping a fortune to UK. ANYHOW take a look at magazine online .



PSS... Forgot to tell you It looks like Honda will never use the RCV213 V4 in WSBK. You Limeys love the Fireblade. Honda will be selling the fCBR1000RR in the UK for another decade lol.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 02:20 AM
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Hi and thanks for giving me more Honda news on an MV forum than I can get from Honda forums!!

We had already received pre-season reports that HRC would tip bucket of money into its CBR1000RR WSB, but to date, sadly, we have seen no result.They will not progress whilst Kiyonari holds a seat. Whilst I respect Kiyonari's achievements, Honda must have test riders who would fare MUCH better.

Back to performance though. I accept your points about Honda's earlier spends on race bikes - most of which resulted in sales of similar road bikes. You'll know that I have one of those bikes (NS400R) derived from the winning 500 GP bike. To the point though, If Honda itself, as opposed to HRC, were to inject millions (and that's what it would have to be) into a CBR1000RR project, that would mean to me (with no foundation) that Honda must intend to maintain the 'Fireblade' in its present or very similar form for the next decade. The damn thing is so dated!! I have five Fireblades dating from 2001 (Erion Racing edition) and those early bikes, the 954 especially, are far superior to my 2018 - in road trim.

I still believe Honda must up its game in the dwindling sports bike market. From what you say, this proposed cash injection could pave the way for a totally revamped model in the form of a V4, or, Honda is going to have more egg on its face than a Guinness Book of Records winning omelette.

Cheers for your further info about the Race Technology mag. I am looking at taking on a trial run of the Motorcycle Hasmper:
https://www.highpowermedia.com/p/121...orcycle_hamper

2007 MV F4 1000R
2018 CBR1000RR SP2 : 2011 CBR1000RR : 2004 CBR1000RR : 2003 CBR954RR : 2001 CBR929RR (Erion Racing Edition)
1985 Honda VF1000R : 1985 Honda NS400R
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 03:45 AM
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As much as I would like to see Honda build a stock V4 superbike, it is IMO unlikely to come in near or mid future: As Honda filed patents for the variable valve timing along with the drag levers for an inline four superbike, my guess is that they will hold onto the Fireblade concept as it is, meaning no V4 for WSBK. The patent drawings for the new aero mirrors to come show the same. As long as Marquez continuously dominates far more important MotoGP, Honda will be able to live with not winning WSBK. And if WSBK will really bother them, then my guess is that they will first try to bring modifications to the chassis instead of completely changing the engine layout.

A Fireblade V4 (with EURO5b compliance) would make the bike leave its current peer group and elevate the price of the base models to regions of the Ducati or the up-spec YZF-R1M or S1000RR M-Package. Ducati lives off the Panigale with good sales and making lots of people enter the store because of it and then go out with a Scrambler or Supersport. The concept of staying with the inline four and offering up-spec models that have a few extras that will then be sold with very good extra margin makes commercially more sense. And the market for superbikes is decreasing anyway, so the commercial guys at Honda likely will not favor a complete revamp with a more costly engine that can hardly be used elsewhere.

I would rather see Honda issuing a revamped RC213V-S earliest 2021. Such thing can be sold in one batch for 50k plus and will serve its purpose as the "posterboy" for the Honda lineup.

My personal feel is that people sometime donot "understand" the Fireblade and Honda's rationale behind it: This bike is designed to be confidence inspiring and thereby the easiest bike to go instantly fast, whereas edgy layouts such as the Yamaha or Aprilia may outperform the Blade by half a second or so in a magazine test with pro riders. I say, 95% of the customers of such bikes would not be able to do that. Some may even feel more comfortable going fast with the Blade. Hence I am also not sure if a pure orientation towards the current WSBK's rulebook dictate would not harm the DNA of the Fireblade.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by flexnow36 View Post
A Fireblade V4 (with EURO5b compliance) would make the bike leave its current peer group and elevate the price of the base models to regions of the Ducati or the up-spec YZF-R1M or S1000RR M-Package. . .

I would rather see Honda issuing a revamped RC213V-S earliest 2021. Such thing can be sold in one batch for 50k plus and will serve its purpose as the "posterboy" for the Honda lineup. . .
Hi Flexi. I agree with you on the Blade's peer group and DNA. The Japanese would most likely consider it an insult to Tadao Baba to switch to V4 so would (in my view) reinstate the RVF moniker.

Given that the V4 is very much in production as the VFR, it would take very little effort and tooling to add a high-performance 998 to the line up. Your vision of a 'revamped RCV213V-S with a 50K price tag would see me at my local dealership within 5 minutes!

For the present though, I and other Honda devotees are left to wonder what 2020 might bring. Hopefully not another white stripe on the tank accompanied by a price increase.

2007 MV F4 1000R
2018 CBR1000RR SP2 : 2011 CBR1000RR : 2004 CBR1000RR : 2003 CBR954RR : 2001 CBR929RR (Erion Racing Edition)
1985 Honda VF1000R : 1985 Honda NS400R
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 08:07 AM
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Hi Nigel,

I keep my fingers crossed that soon you will have a reason to hand over a cheque to your trusted Honda partner

If I might wish for some attributes of your new bike:

- Keep the double swing arm of the RC213V-S (best looking swing arm of all bikes ever, single and double sided ones) and the combined underseat and side exhaust
- Central ram air intake with better hidden LED lights and indicators
- Winglets (a killer machine of the wing empire can have such without being ridiculous)
- Counter-rotating crank
- No extreme road version detuning. That was a somehow a disappointment on the first RC213V-S. I would be ok with 215+ road legal and 250 track only.

I am undecided on the displacement...

But it is your bike, Nigel, so feel invited to alter any item according to your preferences
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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Nigel, Flex how are you doing today? I have been fighting a bout of insomnia the last 3 days so excuse any typos . A good friend of mine is a motorcycle cop who owns a 2003?Cbr 954RR and a 2016 or 2017 CBR1000RR. he says the newer CBR1000RR is the better handling bike I think the CBR954RR feels much lighter and more nimble. He thinks I am losing my riding skills. I have lost a lot of my riding skills due to spine injury. I still cannot feel my feet they just tingle so its good to hear you have the same opinion. BTW NIGEL I was kidding when I said Honda was keeping the CBR1000RR for another decade for UK riders LOLOL. keeping the Fireblade around another 10 years is nuts and very UN honda like . Honda is much more of a revolution company than evolution company like MV AGUSTA . Reengineering or fine tuning the Fireblade in WSBK is new concept for Honda. ironically Honda said they where taking a page from MV AGUSTAS book and refining the CBR1000RR instead of going with the RCV213 V4


Speaking of the Honda RCV213 Flex/ Nigel what was the original target price for the RCV213? 40,000$-45,000$ and ended up being 120,000$? I thought Asians where supposed to be good at math? I am glad there not doing my Taxes LOL . The RCV213 must have been made at American Honda and had to conform to affirmative action rules in the accounting department LOLOL. Seriously HOW did they miss there goal by 80,000$?? Then to add insult to injury the 120k RCV213 has been getting beat by 20k sportbike from Europe and japan. I am sure if Honda developed the RCV213 more it would be in the winner circle. I am not anti Honda They just haven't put out a new innovative model for years now . ANYHOW I with Honda putting so much time and money in WSBK I wonder who they are looking to hire as a top rider,
post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 11:16 AM
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Hi [email protected], thanks, doing great, hope you as well apart from the insomnia...

This is my pure speculation, but I think that the whole RC213 replica project went a bit different than intended. First there was the prototype in Milan and then the actual press releases were a bit "silent" considering that Honda had just issued the most extreme street legal bike in their history. Neither the price tag nor the 160HP road mapping made sense as their regular Fireblade was already more powerful at that time. I really give credit to Honda for even having done this excercise and I do not consider it a fail by any means. But my guess is that they ran out of reasonable budget and time at some point. And then they came up with the detuned engine and the optional track kit to somehow finalize the project. Maybe I am totally wrong about this.

However having learned from that project, this time they would be able to do the job more efficiently. Of course, 50k for an extreme Honda V4 is a wild guess, but seems doable to me. And some stuff could be even taken over from the first RC213V-S bike.

Let's see if the future will bring a V4...
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 11:45 AM
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The key to any contender is the rider.. Honda had Rea and was still not a contender as their bike is junk.
The CBR as a race bike Is flawed in that is built more as what was mentioned above, for the masses to get the most out of their ability and be comfortable from the first lap.
All bikes have some type of weakness it just happens the CBR has way more than most, and the weakest motor on the grid is not doing it any favors.

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2011 Triumph 675R
2009 Yamaha Road Star Warrior
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
. . . They just haven't put out a new innovative model for years now . . .
Yes they have
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2007 MV F4 1000R
2018 CBR1000RR SP2 : 2011 CBR1000RR : 2004 CBR1000RR : 2003 CBR954RR : 2001 CBR929RR (Erion Racing Edition)
1985 Honda VF1000R : 1985 Honda NS400R
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