F41000S retarded in gear.. - MVAgusta.net
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post #1 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-03-2013, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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F41000S retarded in gear..

Here we go again, must be winter again, seem to look at this every year !
This time I've been doing some bench tests.

As most know, with the 1000S models the engine will rev freely in neutral but when put in gear, it feels sluggish, strangled.

I have put together a Ducati ecu that was kindly donated to me together with an rpm simulator and a few simulated sensors and switches. I'm running a tuned F41000S eprom and logging it all on the MIAW software.

Sensor inputs for this test are ecu standard so no other trims will effect the output.

Revving the engine from 1000 - 5000 rpm using an even gain of throttle to a maximum of just 10 degrees as you would on the road, the advance is evenly retarded up to 20 degrees at 5000rpm.

1000 - 5000 @ 5000rpm in gear 28 degrees, in nuetral 48 degrees (-20)
2000 - 5000 @ 5000rpm in gear 35 degrees, in nuetral 48 degrees (-13)
3000 - 5000 @ 5000rpm in gear 45 degrees, in nuetral 48 degrees (-3)
4000 - 5000 @ 5000rpm in gear 48 degrees / in nuetral 48 degrees (0)

I can't figure out what is meant to be happening.
You would expect the advance at 5000rpm to be the same where ever the start point was, TPS is always around 10 degrees at 5k ?

Any ideas?

<
Edit:I guess at 1000 rpm it just has a bigger retard amount to start with than at 4000 rpm ?
>

Anyhow, once found it will be straight forward to eliminate but then it will all need tuning again !

Cheers
Adam

Last edited by merc07; 02-25-2015 at 01:46 PM.
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post #2 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-07-2013, 01:35 PM
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Kudos to you for your efforts Adam. It's very odd to me as well, as we've discussed. Noel, any input here? Anyone else?

John
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post #3 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-08-2013, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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We will have some software finished soon that will allow simulation of any given engine/throttle speeds that can be repeated time after time in batch fashion.

Together with complete control of all the sensors, this will be perfect for graphing and logging the differences in the advance output between in gear and in neutral

Will post more when its's done.....soon it will be fixed JAndrewG !
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post #4 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-09-2013, 12:46 PM
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I really look forward to your results.

Had mine dynoed and the dyno guy told me he never saw such strange ignition settings like on my MV. He adjusted it to standard settings he was familiar to from other 4-cylinders.

Bike runs very smooth, burns much less fuel.

Jochen

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post #5 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-09-2013, 02:15 PM
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I wrote this some years ago for James Corrells FAQ website:

Monday, November 28, 2005
Tuning 4) F4 1000; Idle, throttle, blipping issues

submitted by MikeT

If anyone is wondering about why their MV1000 revs differently/sluggish when put in gear, I suspect that MV have done this by retarding the ignition timing, and progressivly advancing it again, so all's back to std by about 3000 rpm. The "sluggish" part is activated by the neutral switch to make the bike tractable in the very low rpm's, don't forget all the jap multi cylinder 1000's have a twin throttle system were you open one set and the engine vacuum/ECU opens the second set, MV don't have the room to do that due to the compact nature of the airbox etc. You could try"cutting" the neutral light input to the ECU which may get rid of the sluggish under 3000rpm bit, I must admit if you take off with some "gusto" and it goes over 3000rpm whilst also slipping the clutch it does rear it's head up!.

(This reply has not been checked for punctuation, grammar, or spelling mistakes and is devoid of any big long cleverwords or condescending manner)


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Previously (and about 40 others)748SP, S4, S4R, 98R1, 2000 F4, F41000S, F41000R, 08R1, 09R1, S1000RR, RSV4 Factory aPRC in Garage now
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post #6 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-09-2013, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Mike, yes I read all that years ago as well, good write up.

It's you that made me try and figure it all out and do something about it.

I shifted the ebs cut off point a tad lower to help prevent the 'no blipping effect' during normal riding.

As you said in your article, correct fueling and ignition timing also helps.

Now for the retard in neutral part....

Cheers
Adam

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post #7 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-10-2013, 06:40 AM
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I think you may end up a very sensitive low rpm throttle if you restored the advance? good project though!!

(This reply has not been checked for punctuation, grammar, or spelling mistakes and is devoid of any big long cleverwords or condescending manner)


MV's all gone now, still have a soft spot for MV's, waiting for MV to tick all my boxes again.
Previously (and about 40 others)748SP, S4, S4R, 98R1, 2000 F4, F41000S, F41000R, 08R1, 09R1, S1000RR, RSV4 Factory aPRC in Garage now
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post #8 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-10-2013, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merc07 View Post
Hi Mike, yes I read all that years ago as well, good write up.

It's you that made me try and figure it all out and do something about it.

I shifted the ebs cut off point a tad lower to help prevent the 'no blipping effect' during normal riding.

As you said in your article, correct fueling and ignition timing also helps.

Now for the retard in neutral part....

Cheers
Adam

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Hi Adam, I assume that the 750 models do not have this feature because they make much lower HP so it was never needed? jimboF4
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post #9 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-10-2013, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboF4 View Post
Hi Adam, I assume that the 750 models do not have this feature because they make much lower HP so it was never needed? jimboF4
The 750 had a similar problem that I think they addressed in a similar way, on very early 750's it was very hard to re open the throttle mid corner at 6000-7000rpm, the engine vacuum was pulling the throttle blades closed, so, on the 1000 they retarded the ignition which allowed them to open the throttle blades further at idle which helped the issue at 6-7K

(This reply has not been checked for punctuation, grammar, or spelling mistakes and is devoid of any big long cleverwords or condescending manner)


MV's all gone now, still have a soft spot for MV's, waiting for MV to tick all my boxes again.
Previously (and about 40 others)748SP, S4, S4R, 98R1, 2000 F4, F41000S, F41000R, 08R1, 09R1, S1000RR, RSV4 Factory aPRC in Garage now
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post #10 of 70 (permalink) Old 12-10-2013, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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The advance is retarded according to the speed of the rpm rising, very slow and there is a lot less retard.
See the 2 graphs below.

in gear vs neutral on both charts.
1st chart is rpms rising in 500ms, note, more retard...
2nd is rpms rising in 1500ms.

Green trace is the rpm, dark blue the advance

I think this will mean the throttle should be no more sensitive if the tables were changed.
Anyhow, I could always just set them half way !

The main question however is why did MV do this in the first place. Are there other reasons you would want to strangle the engine low down ?

Jimbo, there is no ecu connection to the neutral switch on the 750

Cheers
Adam
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Last edited by merc07; 12-11-2013 at 02:26 AM.
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