Have I Destroyed My Rear Hub - Page 16 - MVAgusta.net
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post #151 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-24-2017, 04:58 PM
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So, Does the oe hub itself distort if the pinch bolts are over torqued ? It seems to my amoeba brain that it would take alot more than 32 Nm to get it to do that..but I'm not an engineer by a long stroke .

Is the 1st gen oe hub really that weak ?

Then if it is, one asks the question "why is it so weak ?"

Is it because it is hollow and the design ethos leaning towards lightness is one step to far in that direction because in order to achieve savings of a little weight, the integrity of the bearings is compromised .?

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post #152 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-25-2017, 02:54 AM Thread Starter
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So, Gordon...( Calcifur ) ! Are you back on the road again ? : )

Joe
Yes and no! I took it work the other day and it felt great. But I suffered electrical failure. I suspect and hope it was just a dead battery that hadn't been properly charged. I have a new one biy not had a chance to test it yet. I am needing to change the oil and coolant, hopefully today, so haven't been out. If its not just a dead battery I will not be pleased. Prior to the hub fail it was running fine. And has been parked up since so I cant see how anything can have happened in that time other than a dead battery. For some reason the battery will drain within a week or so if not left on a tender.

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post #153 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-25-2017, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotojoe View Post
So, Does the oe hub itself distort if the pinch bolts are over torqued ? It seems to my amoeba brain that it would take alot more than 32 Nm to get it to do that..but I'm not an engineer by a long stroke .

Is the 1st gen oe hub really that weak ?
This is the thing that gnaws at my psyche. In order to distort the bearing in the First Gen Hub, you would indeed have to also distort the Hub itself.

As the hub is eccentric, the distortion to the bearings cannot be transmitted evenly and undiminished.

So, @theknurl, Noel...did you crush the hub, in a swingarm, with a bearing in it to take the distortion measurement?

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post #154 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-26-2017, 06:44 AM
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Hi,

I've contemplated the initial post and asked myself on why this happened. One thing that I remember from my discussion with the dealer when I got my Turismo Veloce is that he insisted on the torque here, and as well to do a two-pass to make sure the both bolts were having the same torque. He did not mentioned why. And thinking about it, it may induce the hub moving if both bolts are not at the same torque, as in this case, the seat of the hub would appear like conic?????

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post #155 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-26-2017, 07:34 AM
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In order to distort the bearing in the First Gen Hub, you would indeed have to also distort the Hub itself.
I am keenly waiting for Noel to respond as I'm not a mechanical engineer either but I can add with some research I've done previously for a propellor shaft centre support bearing on a 4WD I owned.

This particular car (VW Touareg) has a track record for propeller shaft (partial failure) requiring replacement at around 100k km (some starting as early as 60k km). The failure is NOT of the bearing itself but the rubber ring that suspends the bearing. Now from the USoA came a solution that involves replacing the rubber ring with a more solid metal/silicon suspension ring. I showed this to a number of driveshaft specialists near where I live and they all said to stay clear because 'you don't want the actual bearing to fail', they all said even though the rubber ring looks like it doesn't provide any structural support what so ever to the bearing, perhaps it was engineered NOT to. I was told that even if small pressure was unevenly put on the bearing it could cause brunelling (which is a scoring of the race) which then will cause other damage and eventually bearing failure. They all said it's better to replace with OEM component and let the rubber ring fail than to force a failure of the bearing itself with the redesigned part which can be very dangerous as it is a bearing that supports a propeller shaft. Short version, even small uneven pressure will damage a bearing was the take away message.

Now I'm not having a go at engineering solutions out of the USoA, I've had some great re-engineered stuff from backyard USA engineers, just not this one.

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post #156 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-26-2017, 07:37 AM
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@MarcSilverTriple: Torquing up bolts is a sequential process. For the hub pinch bolts you torque in a 1-2-1 sequence to partial torque, then 2-1-2 up to a partial torque, then 1-2-1 up to a final torque. If you can envision it, you are walking the gap closed.

Were you to simply torque up bolt number one to spec, then torque up bolt number two to spec, the bolt number one would no longer be in spec.

Torquing multiple fasteners is, when done properly, a time consuming step approach to final torque. It is also necessary to be done that way in order to be successful.

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post #157 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-26-2017, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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Small update for you @gotojoe, received some of the parts from start twin.. I knew the washers were on back order but they didn't tell me that 3 out of the 4 flange bolts o ordered were also on back order so waiting for them. Also have hopefully solved my electrical gremlin. I checked voltages on the battery this evening. While the bike was running it didn't appear to be charging then cut out. Long story short the wire that hangs down around the side stand that is connected to the N indicator has a break some where, this I knew as a previous owner has removed an alarm system. Thought I had sorted it, guess not! Also the 40amp fuse next to the starter relay was blown! So the bike runs bit doesn't charge the battery, hence why I was able to ride to work but not home again!

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post #158 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-28-2017, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.RP View Post
I am keenly waiting for Noel to respond as I'm not a mechanical engineer either but I can add with some research I've done previously for a propellor shaft centre support bearing on a 4WD I owned.

This particular car (VW Touareg) has a track record for propeller shaft (partial failure) requiring replacement at around 100k km (some starting as early as 60k km). The failure is NOT of the bearing itself but the rubber ring that suspends the bearing. Now from the USoA came a solution that involves replacing the rubber ring with a more solid metal/silicon suspension ring. I showed this to a number of driveshaft specialists near where I live and they all said to stay clear because 'you don't want the actual bearing to fail', they all said even though the rubber ring looks like it doesn't provide any structural support what so ever to the bearing, perhaps it was engineered NOT to. I was told that even if small pressure was unevenly put on the bearing it could cause brunelling (which is a scoring of the race) which then will cause other damage and eventually bearing failure. They all said it's better to replace with OEM component and let the rubber ring fail than to force a failure of the bearing itself with the redesigned part which can be very dangerous as it is a bearing that supports a propeller shaft. Short version, even small uneven pressure will damage a bearing was the take away message.

Now I'm not having a go at engineering solutions out of the USoA, I've had some great re-engineered stuff from backyard USA engineers, just not this one.
Paul;
I posted my methodology for testing the hub ( and did it every 90į, 5 times) in the big hub thread.....

Why does a Turdegg have a 2 piece drive shaft??????
Should be independent suspension at both ends, so the transfer case and 3rd member are bolted to the frame.......
You need a sliding spline in the transfer case, a U joint, prop shaft and another U joint on the 3rd member..... that's it

With a center support bearing mounted in a thin rubber diaphragm, seizure of the bearing will cause failure of the diaphragm, if the diaphragm fails by itself you have the same problem......
The drive shaft is out of balance and not supported......

Result, the drive shaft beats the bottom of the vehicle to death

If you mount the center bearing solidly in front of the center U joint on the sliding spline (where it must be) and you have a bearing failure......it just gets noisy and doesn't damage the vehicle.....

Why add extra parts????

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post #159 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-28-2017, 09:32 PM
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Paul;
Why does a Turdegg have a 2 piece drive shaft??????
Should be independent suspension at both ends, so the transfer case and 3rd member are bolted to the frame.......
You need a sliding spline in the transfer case, a U joint, prop shaft and another U joint on the 3rd member..... that's it
The German engineers like to do things different Noel :-). They have a flex coupling at the transfer case, which limits the operating angle, and so articulation is necessary after the flex coupling.

Quote:
With a center support bearing mounted in a thin rubber diaphragm, seizure of the bearing will cause failure of the diaphragm, if the diaphragm fails by itself you have the same problem......
The drive shaft is out of balance and not supported......

Result, the drive shaft beats the bottom of the vehicle to death
The mode of failure is 'always' cracked rubber diaphragm, never any reported case of bearing failure. Guys who have had failure in the bush have been able to fill up the gap with silicon and drive home. There is no concerns with bearing failure causing damage to the diaphragm, and yes when the diaphragm fails, clunk, clunk, clunk to the underside of the car is what happens. I shoved a t-shirt up the gap and drove home OK on one occasion (and I've had 2 driveshaft refurbs now).

Quote:
Originally Posted by theknurl View Post
If you mount the center bearing solidly in front of the center U joint on the sliding spline (where it must be) and you have a bearing failure......it just gets noisy and doesn't damage the vehicle.....
The OEM carrier and aftermarket solid carrier is mounted at the same place (using the same bolt holes) and like you say, in front of the centre coupling, the only difference is that the aftermarket one provides firmer support, and less movement, which is what the driveshaft guys had concerns with. I'm probably with you, ie if the bearing did fail and seize, it'd probably rip itself off the metal support ring of the aftermarket carrier rather than damage the car, but I'm a bit conservative where off-road travel is concerned, and allowing for less destructive failure of the diaphragm to occur first means I can at least get home with bush fixes.

this is the aftermarket carrier one (need to supply your own bearing):
Drive Shaft Driveshaft Clamping Bearing Support Mount - NEW Cardan Shaft FIX! | eBay

this is the oem one (which comes with bearing):
https://www.amazon.com/MTC-955-421-0.../dp/B00BC1G2M6

Supposedly the silicon/metal bearing support will never dry out and crack like the oem rubber diaphragm. But will allow for much less movement (according to the driveshaft guys). One of the company I spoke to was the workshop division of the original driveshaft manufacturer, he said Toyotas have the same setup but probably exposed to less heat and use better factory rubber protection. I've now gone on to more regularly maintain the rubber diaphragm (clean and 303 aerospace the rubber diaphragm every 30k km, and I'm well over 120k km without any sign of rubber cracking/deterioration).

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Last edited by Paul.RP; 06-28-2017 at 09:46 PM.
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post #160 of 161 (permalink) Old 06-29-2017, 06:57 PM
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Can I just say Noel spent a lot of time testing and researching on just how weak the pre 2010 hub/wheel side bearing is and past the information onto me for the development of a stronger hub.His information was very much appreciated.We also had to deal with the non-believers that there was nothing wrong with the OE hub.(Remember that Noel)
So Noel really knows what he is talking about with this issue.


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