3,000-Mile Oil Change Is Pretty Much History - Page 3 - MVAgusta.net
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-26-2010, 07:03 AM
Senior Member
 
gotojoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bellanagare, West Ireland 44 7875 299281
Posts: 9,933
Do Harleys actually have oil inside them ? Hee hee
gotojoe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-26-2010, 07:12 AM
Established Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 230
I requested a kit from Blackstone. I'm interested to see what it shows. I haven't changed the oil since i got the bike but due to misfortune it has sat a while. I'm thinking i should change the oil anyway. What are some indicators that would tell someone to change the oil more or less frequently? I'm new to the analysis of oil.
okigusta is offline  
post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-26-2010, 07:34 AM
Senior Member
 
Rob_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 988
Thumbs up

I know a bit about oils, any questions, just shoot them up here on the forum, and I'll try to answer them

I'll change oil in my bike no more than 5000km. Or yearly.

Oil analysis will tell you TBN & TAN numbers, real good for predicting were the oils at (additive wise at least)

I take about 70 oil samples a month at work, paper mill, for the last few years,and I've never felt the need to test my bike, not once, ever.
Rob_b is offline  
post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-26-2010, 05:37 PM
Senior Member
 
Serious Groper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob_b View Post
I know a bit about oils, any questions, just shoot them up here on the forum, and I'll try to answer them

I'll change oil in my bike no more than 5000km. Or yearly.

Oil analysis will tell you TBN & TAN numbers, real good for predicting were the oils at (additive wise at least)

I take about 70 oil samples a month at work, paper mill, for the last few years,and I've never felt the need to test my bike, not once, ever.

Hey Rob, what are your thoughts on the fully synthetic oils which are supposed to last 12,000kms? My Ducati S4R uses it but i wasn't entirely sure whether to believe the hype or not. I do 20,000km+/yr on bikes and ALL of the commuting guys i know continued to use normal oil changing every 6,000km.

So on the S4R at 12,000km i chucked in the normal stuff and then again at 18,000km. I'll go the fully synthetic stuff if it 'really' does last 12,000kms.

**Admin edited: I have you on ignore **
Serious Groper is offline  
post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-26-2010, 07:10 PM
Senior Member
 
Rob_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 988
Smile

Now, this is all my humble opinion.

Automotive synthetics are best used in engines with high localised temps, like turbo's. The base oil is called a Polyalphaolaphin. These are very uniform long chain carbon molecules with hydrogens hanging off the side. Because these chains are mostly complete with no spare arms, they are very resistant to breaking/cracking or accumulating contaminants that may find a spare arm to catch onto. Great to resisting high temps, thus oxidising/turning black. So it will out perform a mineral oil in this case.

Although oils most important property is viscosty, it contains additives to help protect the engine in all conditions. These are;

Viscosity improvers
Detergents
Anti-wear agents
Anti - oxidants
Rust inhibitors
Anti-foam agents
Extreme pressure additives
Friction modifiers
Metal deactivators
Emulsifiers
Demulsifiers
Pour point depressors
Stabilizers

Now, all of these need to disolve into the oil. But synthetics are very stable, and resist this. There maybe less concentrations or different types of chemicals used in sythetics to overcome this.

A TBN test is the new oils additive levels.

A TAN test will test the acid in your oil. This acid depletes the additive levels. Compare the TAN with the TBN and you get an idea of the life left of additive protection.

You need frequent oil changes in say, marine engines, because of the high level of sulpher in the diesel, a higher level of sulpher than automotive diesels contain. A by product of combustion is water, this water under temp and pressure will react with the sulpher, and make sulphuric acid. Long periods of not starting will leave more time for acids to pit/oxidize metal surfaces etc.

I just use a good quality oil and change often, why risk it.

If you really want to get into it, the auto manufacturers measure cylinder bores, bearing shells and weigh the pistons to determine wear.

So, to me synthetics are an option, no harm. Probably overkill for our engines. A good semi synthetic will do. Semi synthetic as it has a good additive solvency.

I hope this helps
Rob_b is offline  
post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-27-2010, 04:38 PM
Senior Member
 
Snake_EYES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SW FL
Posts: 835
this thread gets better everyday...I want to see someone submit results!

May you live as long as you want, but not want as long as you live
Snake_EYES is offline  
post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-27-2010, 09:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Rob_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 988
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenaugo View Post
Rob. To try and justify my yearly oil change (whatever the mileage), what truth is there in the idea that oil used in an environment which exposes it to the shearing effect of gear mesh, causes the stay in grade ability of the formulation to deteriorate sooner than when used without that extra stress. Apparently this because the long chain molecules you refer to are sheared/churned at greater rate than in simple oil pump and plain bearing environment?

I read a few test a while back that indicated that, depending on the quality of the grade/brand, the viscosity index of normal, non EP oils when used in 'gear-boxed' environments, loose approximately 10% of their viscosity index in the first 800miles. e.g. a 10w60 would perform like say,an 8w54, getting progressively worse with additional mileage?
Warning, you'll only make it to the end if your interested in this shit I hope I have'nt over done it.

Hmmmmm, I'll do my best without rabbiting on too much,

Lets begin with gearbox environments. The gear cut type determines the lubrication mode. Spur or straight cut gears have a long contact area across its tooth face. This contact area is large enough that a fluid film will support the load. This is called hydrodynamic lubrication. When the gears are helical, cross cut, there's a more rolling nature of contact as areas of multiple teath engage and dissengage. This more point like, small contact area is similar to the contacts of the rolling element, call EHL, elasto-hydrodynamic lubrication.

Why elasto, well in the converging area of contact, of say a ball bearing and race, the oils viscosity will create lift because it reaches a point under pressure where it will not compress anymore, it's bulk modulus, now here's the elasto bit, the oil won't give, so the area of contact, metal, compesses slightly and spings back after the load passes. This compession naturally happens on the helical gear teeth too. This is what fatigue is all about. The metal can only cycle this compression/spring so many times before cracking. Then you got the pot hole senario, fluid is compressed into these fissurs, they meet under the suface, and hello, a piece of metal flies off, ready to reek havoc else where. Because a gearbox has ball bearings, gears and seals, the oil is at a compromise already, because technically all require a different viscosity in relation to contact area speed, gear pitch line speed, bearing speed and seal surface speed.

Now, on start up, shut down high load etc, when anti wear additive coatings fail, metal contact occur, this is call boundary lubrication. Mostly metal contact, some fluid. On the asperity level of the surface, friction is so hot that tips of the metal on a microscopic level weld. Now we all know that the temperature needed to weld metal together is bloody hot. This is where the base oil (85-90% of motor oil volume) can sheer, crack under pressure and temperature. Because now, the long chain has broken, it has less internal dynamic sheer, thus lessens the oil's viscosity. One oil test for this is the oil's flash point. The creation of more of these shorter chains lowers the flash point of the oil compared to a new sample of oil.

I'm affraid the notion of visually seeing the oil bubble and throth in a gearbox is not what sheering is about. Oil at STP, is a pretty stable concoction, the micro level is where all of the actions at.

Now all of that talk was about mono grade gear oil. What about multi grade. Same oil as above, but with viscosity improvers. These are very large molecules compare to the hydracarbons. 200-300 times the size, these are polymethacrylates. They are large spiral molocules that curl up into a little ball when cold, so they will not hinder oil flow (viscosity) when cold, Then unfurl very long when hot, thus slowing oil flow, highers viscosity when hot. SAE oil's describe this by rating the oil's number first with a W - Winter, viscostity @0 Deg C. The second number, viscosity @100 Deg C. Oil with out these VI improvers have a VI that is determined by the quality of the base oil. VI is the measure of how much the viscosity changes over temperature. Vegetable oil with cyclo hydracarbons, terrible VI. Long straight chain hydracarbons, motor oils, good VI, made better with additives.

Now an engine that shares crankcase oil with a gearbox, is even more demanding on an oil. Combustion is @1900 Deg C. Well there's some temp to break the VI improvers. Boundry lubrication at the piston rings, piston skirts and cyclinder bore, will shear these long chain VI improvers too. So at W ratings, yes there will be difference.

So you can shear 2 things in an oil. One is the hydracarbon length, which is its dynamic shear, viscosity, it's internal resistance of hydacarbon sliding over hydracarbon. And then you can shear everything thing else as well, additives. People popularly refer shear to viscosity, the most because it is the oil's most important property.

Now my experience with gear oils are that, hardly any of modern day, computor generated machinery run EP free oil. Only old tracktors and such, when things were over enginered compared to duty/cycles they had to perform.

Now, because you mention a multi grade, not mono grade oil, it will have VI improvers. Because it has no EP additives, which chemically bond to the metal surfaces at various temperatures that shear themselves like a pack of cards being slid sideways. Under start stop, high load, it will allow more friction, thus high temp, and when the oil is contact in this hostile environment, at a micro-level, it will shear these VI improvers, thus effecting it's performance as you describe. Remember VI (temp related) is different to viscosity (resistance to internal shear).

But there are many reasons to change your oil, we haven't touched on wear analysis, I wonder where all that clutch wear goes? Combustion by products like varnishes, tarnishes, lacqures and soots also collect around the engine and gum things up, oil rings, valves etc

Boy that was heavy going, well done if you made it to the end. do you really know whats going on inside your engine? The manufacturers do. Just do the responsible thing, use and follow the manufacturers reccomendations. They designed it, and run it to failure many times, use their experience
Rob_b is offline  
post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-28-2010, 05:35 AM
Established Member
 
lonerider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Yeovil, Somerset, UK
Posts: 145
very interesting , thanks for that .
lonerider is offline  
post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-29-2010, 12:14 AM
Senior Member
 
Snake_EYES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SW FL
Posts: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob_b View Post
Warning, you'll only make it to the end if your interested in this shit I hope I have'nt over done it.

Hmmmmm, I'll do my best without rabbiting on too much,

Lets begin with gearbox environments. The gear cut type determines the lubrication mode. Spur or straight cut gears have a long contact area across its tooth face. This contact area is large enough that a fluid film will support the load. This is called hydrodynamic lubrication. When the gears are helical, cross cut, there's a more rolling nature of contact as areas of multiple teath engage and dissengage. This more point like, small contact area is similar to the contacts of the rolling element, call EHL, elasto-hydrodynamic lubrication.

Why elasto, well in the converging area of contact, of say a ball bearing and race, the oils viscosity will create lift because it reaches a point under pressure where it will not compress anymore, it's bulk modulus, now here's the elasto bit, the oil won't give, so the area of contact, metal, compesses slightly and spings back after the load passes. This compession naturally happens on the helical gear teeth too. This is what fatigue is all about. The metal can only cycle this compression/spring so many times before cracking. Then you got the pot hole senario, fluid is compressed into these fissurs, they meet under the suface, and hello, a piece of metal flies off, ready to reek havoc else where. Because a gearbox has ball bearings, gears and seals, the oil is at a compromise already, because technically all require a different viscosity in relation to contact area speed, gear pitch line speed, bearing speed and seal surface speed.

Now, on start up, shut down high load etc, when anti wear additive coatings fail, metal contact occur, this is call boundary lubrication. Mostly metal contact, some fluid. On the asperity level of the surface, friction is so hot that tips of the metal on a microscopic level weld. Now we all know that the temperature needed to weld metal together is bloody hot. This is where the base oil (85-90% of motor oil volume) can sheer, crack under pressure and temperature. Because now, the long chain has broken, it has less internal dynamic sheer, thus lessens the oil's viscosity. One oil test for this is the oil's flash point. The creation of more of these shorter chains lowers the flash point of the oil compared to a new sample of oil.

I'm affraid the notion of visually seeing the oil bubble and throth in a gearbox is not what sheering is about. Oil at STP, is a pretty stable concoction, the micro level is where all of the actions at.

Now all of that talk was about mono grade gear oil. What about multi grade. Same oil as above, but with viscosity improvers. These are very large molecules compare to the hydracarbons. 200-300 times the size, these are polymethacrylates. They are large spiral molocules that curl up into a little ball when cold, so they will not hinder oil flow (viscosity) when cold, Then unfurl very long when hot, thus slowing oil flow, highers viscosity when hot. SAE oil's describe this by rating the oil's number first with a W - Winter, viscostity @0 Deg C. The second number, viscosity @100 Deg C. Oil with out these VI improvers have a VI that is determined by the quality of the base oil. VI is the measure of how much the viscosity changes over temperature. Vegetable oil with cyclo hydracarbons, terrible VI. Long straight chain hydracarbons, motor oils, good VI, made better with additives.

Now an engine that shares crankcase oil with a gearbox, is even more demanding on an oil. Combustion is @1900 Deg C. Well there's some temp to break the VI improvers. Boundry lubrication at the piston rings, piston skirts and cyclinder bore, will shear these long chain VI improvers too. So at W ratings, yes there will be difference.

So you can shear 2 things in an oil. One is the hydracarbon length, which is its dynamic shear, viscosity, it's internal resistance of hydacarbon sliding over hydracarbon. And then you can shear everything thing else as well, additives. People popularly refer shear to viscosity, the most because it is the oil's most important property.

Now my experience with gear oils are that, hardly any of modern day, computor generated machinery run EP free oil. Only old tracktors and such, when things were over enginered compared to duty/cycles they had to perform.

Now, because you mention a multi grade, not mono grade oil, it will have VI improvers. Because it has no EP additives, which chemically bond to the metal surfaces at various temperatures that shear themselves like a pack of cards being slid sideways. Under start stop, high load, it will allow more friction, thus high temp, and when the oil is contact in this hostile environment, at a micro-level, it will shear these VI improvers, thus effecting it's performance as you describe. Remember VI (temp related) is different to viscosity (resistance to internal shear).

But there are many reasons to change your oil, we haven't touched on wear analysis, I wonder where all that clutch wear goes? Combustion by products like varnishes, tarnishes, lacqures and soots also collect around the engine and gum things up, oil rings, valves etc

Boy that was heavy going, well done if you made it to the end. do you really know whats going on inside your engine? The manufacturers do. Just do the responsible thing, use and follow the manufacturers reccomendations. They designed it, and run it to failure many times, use their experience
Fantastico.

May you live as long as you want, but not want as long as you live
Snake_EYES is offline  
post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-29-2010, 08:15 AM
New Member
 
HamptonRoadRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 61
And the simplest, easiest, least expensive way to "really know whats going on inside your engine" is to have an oil analysis done. Stop guessing, start testing.

ATGATT Saved My Life
HamptonRoadRacing is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to use all of the features of the MVAgusta.net site, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome