Timur new CEO - Page 6 - MVAgusta.net
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post #51 of 71 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 01:37 PM
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post #52 of 71 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by flexnow36 View Post
What I meant with „underneath things being ready“: Even if the new Brutale engine is just a massaged version of the old engine, it seems to be Euro 4 compliant and more or less running if they send it into production in early summer.

And I would rather prefer to see the new executives spend the money on a reliable powerplant than on some technology that for some reason none of the competition seems to deem a wise investment (Aprilia may be the exception with their 180k FW special models of which maybe a handful have been sold).


I think you need to understand that MV is not in the same position right now as the other manufacturers. As they are not racing in wsbk they have no regulation to work to for racing which enabled them to do whatever crazy things they like which i believe will be a point of difference for them as a manufacturer.

Wsbk is dead. Why limit your design and tech to a category thats not pulling in the crowds. Yes the brutale has a 200 +hp engine but its still the same one from 2008

They need to spend the big dollars now on a completely new engine and new tech to keep it seperate from the others and to keep it the bespoke manufacturer in the future as it was in the past. Numatic valves and energy recovery is all on the table. Even paddle shifting yes you heard me right.

As for what the new f4 looked like... imagine the suzuki gsxr 1000 with a diamond headlight. Well that was the front fairing.


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post #53 of 71 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 04:55 AM
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That's $18,184 to me in the US at the spot rate. Thank you for being honest about where the money came from and I agree with you that nobody wants to ride - at least for long - a perhaps "uncool" and slow bike like a 300. (although I'm building a Duc 250 for Moto Giro ha ha)

But there has to be a "happy medium" bike that's reasonably affordable, has some performance and looks cool. Like a $6k 500 twin or something with an MV sticker on it. My overall point in this is that I feel the manufacturers have lost their way and forgot where they started and how to get riders in the brand. Once you're in, you're more inclined to stay.
IMHO the only way that is realistically going to happen is along the lines of HD "Street" (India) range or Benelli (China)midrange bikes ie: made in Asia.

Yeah, I know, some of the Ducatis and Triumphs come from Thailand now and I can tell you I'm not too keen on that idea either.

My MV proudly wears a sticker saying "made in Italy" and my Duc is old enough (just) to have been made in Italy not Thailand.

My HD is "made in America with Union labour" (personal import domestic market bike) and my Triumph came to Oz from "the auld country" via "UnZud".

When I bought these bikes I also bought into the dreams of their exotic origins (ok exotic might not be the word) and while I have no problem with Thailand or China per se..it's not quite what I had in mind.

If I was to buy a new MV, I would want it to be truly Italian.

Wayyyyyy off topic again guys...sorry, just got carried away with the convo...

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post #54 of 71 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 12:21 PM
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IMHO the only way that is realistically going to happen is along the lines of HD "Street" (India) range or Benelli (China)midrange bikes ie: made in Asia.

Yeah, I know, some of the Ducatis and Triumphs come from Thailand now and I can tell you I'm not too keen on that idea either.

My MV proudly wears a sticker saying "made in Italy" and my Duc is old enough (just) to have been made in Italy not Thailand.

My HD is "made in America with Union labour" (personal import domestic market bike) and my Triumph came to Oz from "the auld country" via "UnZud".

When I bought these bikes I also bought into the dreams of their exotic origins (ok exotic might not be the word) and while I have no problem with Thailand or China per se..it's not quite what I had in mind.

If I was to buy a new MV, I would want it to be truly Italian.

Wayyyyyy off topic again guys...sorry, just got carried away with the convo...
Alby - virtually no bike today is made in a single location - even my 1994 "all Italian" Bimota - when those bikes were made in a single location - has Japanese carbs and electrics, a shock made in Sweden and who knows what else. You can't ignore the labor rates in some of the less developed countries. I don't necessarily mind this, as long as the part in question is made to a certain spec in terms of engineering, quality of components and execution. Sometimes they're not. Many HD parts even 20 years ago were made in China and Japan - there was a guy in the York HD plant whose job it was to spray paint the incoming boxes to obliterate their origin.

I do think that the crappy MC market will (and is) conspire to cause HD to move more main stream since their traditional bikes are not selling. I also feel that they have the resources to do this successfully, meaning to make a bike that more people want without losing the HD identity. Even though I am not a HD guy, I hope they do and are successful. It would be good for us all.
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post #55 of 71 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by wnehme View Post
I think you need to understand that MV is not in the same position right now as the other manufacturers. As they are not racing in wsbk they have no regulation to work to for racing which enabled them to do whatever crazy things they like which i believe will be a point of difference for them as a manufacturer.

Wsbk is dead. Why limit your design and tech to a category thats not pulling in the crowds. Yes the brutale has a 200 +hp engine but its still the same one from 2008

They need to spend the big dollars now on a completely new engine and new tech to keep it seperate from the others and to keep it the bespoke manufacturer in the future as it was in the past. Numatic valves and energy recovery is all on the table. Even paddle shifting yes you heard me right.
I have not said anything about MV having to stick to WSBK compliant engine layout. I am just questioning building an engine that carries the inherent risk of not being commercially reasonable. Ducati and Aprilia have already shown the path by going beyond the 1000cc limit. Honda is said to do the same on the next Fireblade update.

Why are all doing the same? Because its cheaper and controllable, proven technology. I am not advocating for a pure follower strategy. Maybe energy recovery is something to invest in as this will likely come. But the pneumo valves, the charger and paddle shifting do not make sense, especially not in combination. If you install a charger on a bike, you will no longer need super high revs. But for exactly that problem pneumo valves are used in prototype racers that receive maintenance after every race. In stock production no company is using them...for a reason.

Where I am completely holding a different view is the argumentation that these investments need to be made to stay the bespoke manufacturer. The first MV F4 had the radial valves as the only differing element engine wise. Was it the most powerful at that time? No, but it sold and built a legacy because of its styling and the exciting riding experience.

So lets assume they manage to build a F4 hyper turbo bike. If the selling point of such machine was the 300HP, then it will be hyped for some months, and then it will be irrelevant. Kawasaki has already built such a bike with the H2. For them it worked, because they were the first and the bike does not need to have a real margin. It is just there to demonstrate the normal customer " we can do that" and then the customer purchases a new Ninja 400. For MV the F4 needs to contribute margin and scalable tech to be applied on the Brutale (which is the commercially more relevant bike). Maybe I am totally wrong, but trying to make the F4 to be an even more exotic Italian version of the Ninja H2 will just result in Kawasaki doing a little update "to keep the distance".

The niche of MV Agusta needs to be exotically styled bikes with unique characteristics, but not necessarily to be the first and only in everything. The other manufacturers are giants in comparison, so why trying to enter into a tech war that cannot be won in the long run.

If a really nicely styled, more conservatively equipped "F4 1078 RR 315" was brought to the market and it was (as always in the past) a little slower on the track than the Panigale or the S1000RR, would the potential MV buyer really care? I doubt that they would look at the bike and think: "well the bike is hot, but without paddle shifted peumo turbo engine it is not special enough".
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post #56 of 71 (permalink) Old 03-31-2019, 10:25 PM
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Yeh Rob, I understand the motorcycle is the sum of all parts and they have for a long time been "assembled" (sorry) from all over the globe...

it was the same back in the post jurassic era when I worked for General motors as a young man building Holden cars..

parts came from around the world and indeed we sent them also..

what I didn't manage to communicate well was that it is the image of Italian guys in a probably not too dissimilar factory to the one i worked in sweating over the job, wondering who will own this bike and where in the world will it go to and of course

"what's for dinner? Pizza or pasta?"

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2012 HD FXDWG 103 Blue Flames
2013 Ducati Diavel Very Black Metallic
1981 Triumph T140 Bonneville Maroon / Cream.
1973 Yamaha CT3 175 chook chaser

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Last edited by albymangled; 03-31-2019 at 10:28 PM.
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post #57 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by flexnow36 View Post
I have not said anything about MV having to stick to WSBK compliant engine layout. I am just questioning building an engine that carries the inherent risk of not being commercially reasonable. Ducati and Aprilia have already shown the path by going beyond the 1000cc limit. Honda is said to do the same on the next Fireblade update.



Why are all doing the same? Because its cheaper and controllable, proven technology. I am not advocating for a pure follower strategy. Maybe energy recovery is something to invest in as this will likely come. But the pneumo valves, the charger and paddle shifting do not make sense, especially not in combination. If you install a charger on a bike, you will no longer need super high revs. But for exactly that problem pneumo valves are used in prototype racers that receive maintenance after every race. In stock production no company is using them...for a reason.



Where I am completely holding a different view is the argumentation that these investments need to be made to stay the bespoke manufacturer. The first MV F4 had the radial valves as the only differing element engine wise. Was it the most powerful at that time? No, but it sold and built a legacy because of its styling and the exciting riding experience.



So lets assume they manage to build a F4 hyper turbo bike. If the selling point of such machine was the 300HP, then it will be hyped for some months, and then it will be irrelevant. Kawasaki has already built such a bike with the H2. For them it worked, because they were the first and the bike does not need to have a real margin. It is just there to demonstrate the normal customer " we can do that" and then the customer purchases a new Ninja 400. For MV the F4 needs to contribute margin and scalable tech to be applied on the Brutale (which is the commercially more relevant bike). Maybe I am totally wrong, but trying to make the F4 to be an even more exotic Italian version of the Ninja H2 will just result in Kawasaki doing a little update "to keep the distance".



The niche of MV Agusta needs to be exotically styled bikes with unique characteristics, but not necessarily to be the first and only in everything. The other manufacturers are giants in comparison, so why trying to enter into a tech war that cannot be won in the long run.



If a really nicely styled, more conservatively equipped "F4 1078 RR 315" was brought to the market and it was (as always in the past) a little slower on the track than the Panigale or the S1000RR, would the potential MV buyer really care? I doubt that they would look at the bike and think: "well the bike is hot, but without paddle shifted peumo turbo engine it is not special enough".


I dont think theres any risk. If they can figure it all out and it works. Than its a game changer. You see thats the good thing about MV. They have to think out of the box to make things work. Where everyone else just doing the same old thing not putting to much thought into it MV have too. They dont have the money to throw at R&D so it makes them even think harder and smarter on how to massage the engine.

It only means one thing. Going back to exclusive days of premium priced motorcycles in limited numbers which means ultra rare ultra exclusive customers.


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post #58 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 04:31 AM
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I dont think theres any risk. If they can figure it all out and it works. Than its a game changer. You see thats the good thing about MV. They have to think out of the box to make things work. Where everyone else just doing the same old thing not putting to much thought into it MV have too. They dont have the money to throw at R&D so it makes them even think harder and smarter on how to massage the engine.

It only means one thing. Going back to exclusive days of premium priced motorcycles in limited numbers which means ultra rare ultra exclusive customers.


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I was under the impression that strategy bankrupted them prior to the HD take over. They even went out of their way back in 2012 trying to tell everyone that super premium doesn't work.

They should do some market research and find out what their customers want before spending money on things that their customers don't care about.

Where will they find dealers willing to sell and service 1 bike per month? The world is not Dubai and the Lewis Hamilton's of the world that they are trying to appeal to would rather have a Ducati V4R.

MV in my opinion is on a fast track to irrelevance. Pneumatic valves and paddle shit mean nothing when the product doesn't sell.
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post #59 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 12:14 PM
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As for what the new f4 looked like... imagine the suzuki gsxr 1000 with a diamond headlight. Well that was the front fairing.


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post #60 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-07-2019, 02:13 PM
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Yeh Rob, I understand the motorcycle is the sum of all parts and they have for a long time been "assembled" (sorry) from all over the globe...

it was the same back in the post jurassic era when I worked for General motors as a young man building Holden cars..

parts came from around the world and indeed we sent them also..

what I didn't manage to communicate well was that it is the image of Italian guys in a probably not too dissimilar factory to the one i worked in sweating over the job, wondering who will own this bike and where in the world will it go to and of course

"what's for dinner? Pizza or pasta?"
Alby - even my hand made 70's 80's BMWs had some Japanese electrics - some of the switching - and this is the era for BMW when the bikes were assembled, jigged and welded by hand and the pinstriper signed his or her initials under the fuel tank. I remember my silver 83 R100 that I bought new and still own having a wisp of a dark blue fingerprint on the front fender from the striper. It was only a few faint dots and lines, but it was clearly recognizable as such. Since it was on top of the clear coat, years of waxing and polishing have since removed it - unfortunately. Economics and technology have since conspired to make bikes - and cars for that matter - less personal and less of a solid connection to the people that actually designed and built them.

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2016 Tri Thruxton R
2005 Ago F4 1000
2005 BMW 1200GS
1995 Duc 916
1994 Bim DB2
1986 Duc MHR Mille
1983 BMW R100S
1975 Hon 400
1975 BMW R90S
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1972 Hon 750
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