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post #21 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by italia View Post
I would venture a guess that most of the 1999-2009 spike was all the middle aged guys who bought Harley's because it was the thing to have. I have friends who bought one, kept it several years, and sold it, never to ride a motorcycle again. Similar to how the golf industry in US had a huge spike from late 80's to late 90's - it was the thing to do - join a country club and learn to play golf. I wonder what the non-Harley sales graph would look like from 1990-2016.



Nope, it had to do with the gas shortage.
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post #22 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 04:37 PM
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Interesting. If what you say is true, then it was really a bubble (the article author also suggests that).
In the EU with a population of around 513 million, 2018 closed above 1 million units(not including mopeds/scooters), I don't know the exact number.
If the USA number is around half a mil, well it's not bad is it?
No, the sky is not falling, but only because it already has. At least in the US. In 2008. Sales are little more than half of what they were but the real issue is the trend of the post 08 years - no significant growth. Motorcycling in Europe is a way of life - probably due to gas being $8/gallon (half of which is taxes) - but, in the US nobody "needs" to ride a motorcycle, much less an MV or Harley. It's a luxury and is the first thing to go south when the economy takes a shit. As I noted above, Harley sales have been off significantly for the last 5 yrs with Triumph being the only major manufacturer having any kind of gain in the US market. And if you think electric bikes are going to save the industry, think again. Didn't Chevy just get rid of the Volt?

I think part of the issue is that few of the manufacturers have entry level bikes with an entry level price. This is indicative of them all forgetting their roots. Even Ducati and MV had small 100-200cc ish bikes back in the day and this got them on the map and made the brand. No new rider is going to waltz in to a dealership and plop down $20k for an MV. If he can find a dealership in the first place, that is.

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post #23 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 04:44 PM
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Nope, it had to do with the gas shortage.
Nope, the gas shortage was in the mid 70's

RC
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2016 Tri Thruxton R
2005 Ago F4 1000
2005 BMW 1200GS
1995 Duc 916
1994 Bim DB2
1986 Duc MHR Mille
1983 BMW R100S
1975 Hon 400
1975 BMW R90S
1974 Duc 750 Sport
1972 Hon 750
1966 Hon S90
1965 Duc Monza
1971 Norton 750
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post #24 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 06:32 PM
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No, the sky is not falling, but only because it already has. At least in the US. In 2008. Sales are little more than half of what they were but the real issue is the trend of the post 08 years - no significant growth. Motorcycling in Europe is a way of life - probably due to gas being $8/gallon (half of which is taxes) - but, in the US nobody "needs" to ride a motorcycle, much less an MV or Harley. It's a luxury and is the first thing to go south when the economy takes a shit. As I noted above, Harley sales have been off significantly for the last 5 yrs with Triumph being the only major manufacturer having any kind of gain in the US market. And if you think electric bikes are going to save the industry, think again. Didn't Chevy just get rid of the Volt?

I think part of the issue is that few of the manufacturers have entry level bikes with an entry level price. This is indicative of them all forgetting their roots. Even Ducati and MV had small 100-200cc ish bikes back in the day and this got them on the map and made the brand. No new rider is going to waltz in to a dealership and plop down $20k for an MV. If he can find a dealership in the first place, that is.

Rob the people who ride motorcycles in Europe is because they love them. For practical reasons, like saving money on gas(which you are very right, the prices are on another planet compared to the USA) or not getting stuck in jams(we all filter) or parking easiness, people buy scooters/three wheelers(which is unheard in the USA). Number of scooters sold are not included in the numbers I gave.

About electric motorcycles, first of all I despise them and secondly if solely enforced I believe they would be the end of motorcycling but that is another conversation.


I agree with you that prices keep young people/new riders away from motorcycles. There are other reasons of course like cultural swifts e.t.c
but I think affordability/desirability is a major obstacle. Over-regulation and policing of everything is another strong reason....but again a big subject.


By the way, what the fuck is Harley doing with their upcoming electric model??????????
Why?????
Get me out of this planet.....

Nes


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post #25 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Nesca View Post
I agree with you that prices keep young people/new riders away from motorcycles. There are other reasons of course like cultural swifts e.t.c
but I think affordability/desirability is a major obstacle. Over-regulation and policing of everything is another strong reason....but again a big subject.
In europe we got stupid motorcycle license rules that "prevented" dead of young and new motorcycle riders

At age 18 you can get license A1 which equalls 25kw max power. Which you need to have a minimum of 2 years experience with before you can advance to license A2 which is 35kw max power.
Also again 2 years minimum to advance license A which is unrestricted power.

Or wait till you're 24 of age and you can instantly get license A.

The big BIG issue with these rules, everytime you advance to a higher license you need to re-do your driving test.
Which means atleast 2-7 hours of "training" at your riding school. And the additional 350,- price of examcosts.
So each and every advance costs at minimum 500,-
ALSO need to buy a new drivers license which tells you'd advance in class.

Thats a major turn off for new riders.

*BONUS SCAM*
Since July 2018, suddenly you can get drivers license A at age 18. BUT code A is applied which means you can ride a three wheeled vehicle for 2 years and suddenly its okay to step on a hayabusa.
To recap: you drive two years on a tricycle, and then you can hop onto a balancing vehicle.
AKA: MAKES 0 F'ING SENSE.
Welcome to Europe.

From my understanding, in USA you can buy any bike you want and do a couple of motorcycle control moves and if you succeed you have a license?
Also stupid to be honest.
(Correct me if im wrong about this)

"Mileena"
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post #26 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 07:08 PM
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From my understanding, in USA you can buy any bike you want and do a couple of motorcycle control moves and if you succeed you have a license?
Also stupid to be honest.
(Correct me if im wrong about this)
No, You are quite correct.

At 16yo I had a 1977 Honda 750ss which was one of the most powerful bikes you could get back then.

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post #27 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 07:23 PM
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From my understanding, in USA you can buy any bike you want and do a couple of motorcycle control moves and if you succeed you have a license?
Also stupid to be honest.
(Correct me if im wrong about this)

I don't know how the licensing system goes, I'm not from the USA.

I am not against compulsory training but it has to be honest and of a high level. To foster freedom and not suppress it.

In most European countries it is more or less farcical. And in some cases you could call it a scam, yes.

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post #28 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 08:34 PM
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Looks like tomorrow is their last day. If anyone is going could they check to see if they have any MV banners or posters they could ship to me? I sent them a email but never got a reply.

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post #29 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-18-2019, 10:18 PM
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@Nesca
Yes, I agree and is what I meant when I said "motorcycling is a way of life" in Europe. It is not that way in the US.

The licensing requirements in the US are as follows: A pulse and positive blood pressure. And now, you can get one even if you're from out of town.

While I feel that the licensing levels in Europe have more to do with enabling the government to tax something over and over in the form of fees, I do agree that merely having blood pressure should not be the main factor in qualifying you to ride off on a 160hp sport bike. I will say that the good thing about the stepped training fees is that those who aren't serious about riding simply don't. I believe it costs $2000 in Germany to get a license to drive, and this includes some relatively serious training. So, once again, if you're not serious about driving, you don't. And the Autobahn, during the period when it had unlimited speed limits, had the lowest fatality rate in the world because only those who are serious were on it.

Motorcycling is dead in the US because people these days would rather play on their cell phones and feign getting their hands dirty or taking a physical risk.
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2016 Tri Thruxton R
2005 Ago F4 1000
2005 BMW 1200GS
1995 Duc 916
1994 Bim DB2
1986 Duc MHR Mille
1983 BMW R100S
1975 Hon 400
1975 BMW R90S
1974 Duc 750 Sport
1972 Hon 750
1966 Hon S90
1965 Duc Monza
1971 Norton 750
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post #30 of 55 (permalink) Old 01-19-2019, 05:46 AM
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@Rob Caso.
I feel like I got scammed at my riding school.
My very first lesson was in extremely heavy rain. Started lightly and seriously increased from light to heavy to a major poor down. After that first ride he said to me; you're a born motorcycle rider.
In the end it took me over 4 months. Did succeed every exam in first go.

30lessons x50,-per hour =1500,-
1exam vehicle control x150,- =1650,-
1exam road riding x350,- =2000,- A2 license complete.

3lessons x55,-per hour =2175,-
1xexam road riding x350,- =2525,- A license complete.

Its a total scam from our european rules.

After I passed my exams and got my riders license he said, another person got his riders license in 15 lessons.
He was born to ride a motorcycle.
No my driving school knew I paid per lesson and he just flat out took advantage of that. But thats something my [email protected] figured out after I succeeded.

*ALSO*
At first he teached me to ride on the left side of the ridinglane in the path where the cars left wheels ride.(cleaner roades)
I start my BS lesson for A license, I do what he learned me to do and suddenly he says im wrong and need to ride in the center where all oils of cars drip.
Like wtf....?? At that moment I knew 100% he's after the money and throwing people off.

Had this awful Honda CB650F as lesson bike which clutch isnt adjustable, my hands to small to feather the clutch. Or letting out clutch last 0,5cm. So it jerks at the end.
Throttle sensitivity 10x as sensitive as an MV Agusta. And that says alot!
I said to him, buy some levers and give me and other people the change to adjust it to match their finger lenght. This is unrideable and plain dangerous is some situations.
It somehow was my fault. That f'ing @sshole xD


But im going off topic it seems. So ill stop and leave it at this.
Just wanted to point out, I'd rather get my license in USA and with common sense ride careful first couple years. Learn and adapt.
This is flatout BS, and will decrease new riders over time.

"Mileena"
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