Is this the real deal? - MVAgusta.net
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post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-14-2013, 05:53 AM Thread Starter
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Is this the real deal?

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MV Agusta 175 CSS
This bike has earned the original name of Disco Volante by the form of its bulbous gas tank. Developed by Mario Rossi, after designs made by the Count Domenico Agustain the early 1950ís. Representing the super sport variant after the CST and CSTL versions were produced early 1954. This bike was a real sportster.
This version was only available in 1954, the tank was standard on this type. The 175 CSS was characterized by the front suspension following Earless design. This was a race developed suspension as proposed by one of its famous race drivers: Leslie Graham. Besides this front suspension, the other bike characteristics were all the same throughout the series CSTL, CS and CSS.
The engine was an up-tuned version of the CSTL basic lay-out, by means of much more pronounced cam form. Cam lift was a considerable 8,25 mm, and inlet and outlet cams were inter- adjustable. While the CS had an engine that provided very good torque, the CSS engine was tuned for top speed. The cylinder head had much greater cooling fin area. Compression ratio was much higher by means of a high piston. Production numbers were probably no more than 450 units, all made in 1954.

Frame number: 406078 Engine number: 470070 S
MV Agusta Historic Register registration: # 0281

Principal characteristics:
Displacement: 172,4 cc
Bore and stroke: 59,5 x 62 mm
Compression ratio: 8.5 : 1
Overhead cam: Chain drive, cam lift 8.25 mm
Power: 14 hp / 8.000 rpm
Ignition: Flywheel magneto
Carburetor: Dell-Orto SSI 25 ( 22.5 in MSDS form)
Transmission: Four gears
Brakes: Front drum 180 mm, rear drum 150 mm
Wheels, tyres: Alloy, 19 inch, front 2.50 inch, rear 2.75 inch
Dry weight: 103 kg
Maximum speed: 135 km / h

I thought the CSS should have a engine number starting with 45 and ending with a SS(lower case).
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post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-14-2013, 08:41 PM
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Here we go................


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post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-15-2013, 02:43 PM
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Well it sure is pretty. When are you getting it?

What we've got here, is failure to communicate.
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post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-17-2013, 12:12 AM Thread Starter
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Just got confirmation from someone who knows the bike and owner and its not a original bike .Although owner was saying it was but could not provide any information to back that up when I asked. So I'm out
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post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-17-2013, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian View Post
Just got confirmation from someone who knows the bike and owner and its not a original bike .Although owner was saying it was but could not provide any information to back that up when I asked. So I'm out
Unfortunately Adrian, that's the way it is with these things - even the experts can't agree on them so unless you'd just like to own a pretty bike (which it very much is) and are happy to pay the asking price then there's other models to look at.

Ah... the Disco minefield. I keep looking & keep getting scared away from them.


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Last edited by MVista; 07-17-2013 at 01:25 AM.
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post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2013, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian View Post
I thought the CSS should have a engine number starting with 45 and ending with a SS(lower case).
Motor number prefix 45 is not the only correct prefix for SS.
47 prefix is correct with one S.

The example in the photo you provided has enough clues (my opinion FWIW) it's a "replica".

Good luck in your hunt, don't give up!


1954 MV 175 CSS Super Sport
1957 MV 175 CS Modello Sport
1967 Motobi 125 Sport
1974 Ducati 750 GT
Left Coast USA
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post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2013, 04:39 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulagun View Post
Motor number prefix 45 is not the only correct prefix for SS.
47 prefix is correct with one S.

The example in the photo you provided has enough clues (my opinion FWIW) it's a "replica".

Good luck in your hunt, don't give up!
The owner said this bike was a transition model . This is his response after i said bike is fake/replica.

There is absolutely nothing fake on or about this machine..
The frame has the 40.. early figures. The engine has the very early 470.. numbers with a single S (Though the engine has the CSS specification with mutually adjustable inlet and outlet camshaft and high piston). In the transitional period from the CSS (only made in 1954, and very beginning 1955) to the simpler CS (made from early 1955) there were transition models made between those two models, with the frame still CSS (1954), and the engine CS (1955).
The reason for this was that the production lines were not parallel. These transitional models are confirmed to me by Enrico Sironi, the museum director of MV (successor of Vincent Rossi, the designer of the 175), and by Gian Pio Ottone, the former trial driver of the factory who rode the 175 dirt bike. (only two ever built).
In addition, the historical MV Agusta registery also recognized it as a CSS model and has confirmed this by registering the bike accordingly as the bike is in accordance with the known data.
All this information I am also using in my book about the MV Agusta 175 series. I fear that what has been assumed is based on not being fully aware of the information as given.

I don't believe this, especially after I asked for documents to back this up he can't provide.
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post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2013, 10:14 AM
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I don't know, that sounds somewhat legitimate, but what do i know. Is there anyway that you could do some research like calling the Agusta Museum to find out if those years and that number combination is in fact in the registry?

That sure is a lot of information for it to be a fake, a lot of information that could be checked out I would think. I would cut-and-paste and forward that on to someone more in the know before I gave it the fake stamp of disapproval.
Usually if you're calling somebody out on a fake and they know it, they don't give such a response. They are usually waiting for the guy that has not done his homework.

What we've got here, is failure to communicate.
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post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2013, 01:38 PM
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Hi all,
First off it's not my intent to pick apart someone's machine, but Adrian asked for help. And it's my opinion anyone offering up a machine for sale must be willing to have others look at it critically.


Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian View Post
The owner said this bike was a transition model . This is his response after i said bike is fake/replica.

There is absolutely nothing fake on or about this machine..
The frame has the 40.. early figures. The engine has the very early 470.. numbers with a single S (Though the engine has the CSS specification with mutually adjustable inlet and outlet camshaft and high piston).
Yes the frame numbers are in the ballpark, so I can't say they are wrong but they do not seem 100% right. The frame has no toolboxes. The fork is visibly different from the authentic examples I have seen, and so is the front fender. Just look, these differences are easily spotted. More photos would be good to have.

Yes, the motor is a Sport motor, no fake there. But it is NOT a CSS motor. A CSS is all about getting the right motor case numbers and parts. Parts go bad and get changed around, so having a different cam or carb does not a Super Sport make.


In the transitional period from the CSS (only made in 1954, and very beginning 1955) to the simpler CS (made from early 1955) there were transition models made between those two models, with the frame still CSS (1954), and the engine CS (1955).

I have good reason to believe the CS Sport did NOT come after the CSS. In my opinion the CS Sport was introduced at the same time as the CSS. I even asked Dorian about documenting this timeline but have not heard back yet. And I am doubtful any "transitional models" existed of the CSS. CS Sport pre-production prototypes and mockups existed, and all I can say is this one doesnt match the limited reference I have.

Clone, reproduction, replica, fake, zebra... which word to use depends on if you are the seller or the buyer!


The reason for this was that the production lines were not parallel. These transitional models are confirmed to me by Enrico Sironi, the museum director of MV (successor of Vincent Rossi, the designer of the 175), and by Gian Pio Ottone, the former trial driver of the factory who rode the 175 dirt bike. (only two ever built).

OK. Sironi has been misquoted before, so I am skeptical when someone just drops his name. You were smart to ask to see documentation in writing.

In addition, the historical MV Agusta registery also recognized it as a CSS model and has confirmed this by registering the bike accordingly as the bike is in accordance with the known data.
All this information I am also using in my book about the MV Agusta 175 series. I fear that what has been assumed is based on not being fully aware of the information as given.

I am not questioning this persons credentials, and there's no advantage to me to do so. But he is representing this 175 MV as a CSS model and trying to explain it by calling it a "transitional model". Just because some society "recognized" it does not mean that buyers should go shut their eyes and assume the society knows best. Question authority. It is smart to approach with caution any valuable old rare machine, and especially one like the CS Sport and Super Sport where fakes are more common than real ones.


I don't believe this, especially after I asked for documents to back this up he can't provide.[/QUOTE]


1954 MV 175 CSS Super Sport
1957 MV 175 CS Modello Sport
1967 Motobi 125 Sport
1974 Ducati 750 GT
Left Coast USA

Last edited by hulagun; 07-20-2013 at 01:04 PM. Reason: correction
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post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-19-2013, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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Is this what it should look like?. Do you have any pictures of original bikes
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