Help needed - Rear Hub/Sprocket rubbing - Page 19 - MVAgusta.net
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post #181 of 289 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul.RP View Post
Dons, Noel,

Take a look at the vid I posted earlier. From 7:00 - 9:30. It is consistent with my reading and understanding of the exploded parts of the rear wheel for both gen bikes. The circlip (together with all the parts between the circlip and the hub) locates the hub in the swing arm. If the circlip or any part/s between the circlip and the hub is missing and the pinchbolts are loose, then the hub can migrate towards the sprocket carrier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_e6DIPZTnM

I don't know why you are so keen to discount wheelside, given (as you have already said), the entire stack is clamped together by design.
You're still wrong Paul, or missing the point.
I don't have to look at a video (but still did), I have a few hubs and swing-arms right here Paul, I have installed and removed more than most guys on this forum. Listen to your own wording, and try and keep things in context man, you are talking about two different things here, hub movement and stack movement is two different things in two different areas.
Firstly, the Circlip, Seeger ring or Snap-ring (call it what you want) discussed in this case (and mentioned below by Bruce) of carriers hitting the hub is the inner one.
The outer one has nothing to do with the stack, but if the outer one is missing or dislodged the hub might move left (destroying the rear disc brake carrier), BUT....and when the hub moves left so WILL the carrier, simply because this does not involve the stack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnstubing View Post
An excellent video indeed which shows quite clearly some FACTS about the hub and axle assembly. Take a close look at the 7 minute mark, the technician installs the hub into the swingarm and the flange of the hub is clearly up against the side of the swingarm. It cannot move any further to the right because of the flange. He then installs the shim and the brake calliper plate and secures it all with a big fat circlip. The hub cannot move to the left. At this point the hub cant move left or right and loose pinch bolts will only result in a loose/tight chain. Nothing else is true.


I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnstubing
What is not completely obvious is the sealed 6810-2RS installed in the wheel side of the hub with a snap-ring (at this point I owe the forum an apology. I have been referring to the item securing this bearing in the hub as a circlip which it plainly is not. Its a snap-ring). The 6810-2RS bearing sets the lateral position of the axle because it forms part of the stack assembly on the axle and this bearing is fixed in position.

Once you have installed the axle in the hub with the stack correctly you will find a gap between the left hand face of the hub and the sprocket carrier of about 2-3mm. This gap will not change and the two surfaces will rotate past each other without making contact. Once assembled and working correctly nothing should move sideways, left or right, only rotationally. If the axle moves sideways to close the gap between the hub and the sprocket carrier and thus create the damage we are seeing then I maintain it is because the 6810-2RS bearing has shifted. It cant be anything else.

If you don't believe me go out to your shed and take it apart and put it back together again. If the assembly is correct in the first place the only way this wear can occur is if something moves. This is what happened to my F3 and since I installed the snap-ring and 6810-2RS bearing correctly it hasn't shifted since...
I will agree with you here Bruce. So you're saying that the other two members who's had this problem has had the inner Circlip or SEEGER Ring missing or dislodged ?

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post #182 of 289 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 09:56 PM
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@Paul.RP - you're more than welcome to ring me or ask for additional picture if this will help.

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post #183 of 289 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 01:36 AM
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I will agree with you here Bruce. So you're saying that the other two members who's had this problem has had the inner Circlip or SEEGER Ring missing or dislodged ?[/QUOTE]

Yep FOR A CORRECTLY ASSEMBLED HUB my contention is that the only way this wear can occur is if the inner snap-ring is dislodged or missing and the sealed bearing is allowed to move. Earlier in this thread I made this suggestion but it was discounted because apprently some forum members had experienced this wear/damage and the bearing and snap-ring were intact. One forum member even suggested the bearing did not function in this manner and the snap-ring did nothing so he has removed it from his bike. Glad he doesn't work on mine! I'm somewhat dubious that the bearing and snap-ring were intact but if true then the hub assy must have been assembled incorrectly somehow and without seeing it I couldn't speculate. I guess if a spacer was left out this would result but surely in this case as the sprocket nut was torqued up the whole rotating assembly would bind up? If the sprocket nut was loose then yes this could happen but again how? The nut has a securing device which if fitted correctly prevents the nut from loosening. If the nut was loose on installation it would have to be so loose as to allow the axle to move sideways about 2-3mm and start rubbing the rotating parts together. Again, how?

What I can't explain is how my snap-ring became dislodged in the first place and allowed the bearing to start migrating. Either it wasn't fitted properly at the factory (which I consider unlikely it's not a particularly technical engineering activity) or it was dislodged in service. I bought my bike at 7000 km and the dealer had fitted a new rear tyre during the 6000 km service. They torqued the rear wheel nut up to a figure which I can only guess at. FT would not even come close. Even my rattle gun wouldn't shift it and in the end I had to extract the wheel from the bike complete with axle still fitted by taking the sprocket side apart. I don't know if during the torquing process the shop dislodged the snap-ring but it wouldn't surprise me.

I don't pull hubs apart every second day nor do I build hubs and sell them but as an aircraft engineer for 35 years I have a pretty good understanding of engineering principles. When I experienced this problem on my bike it was very obvious to me how the hub stack and bearing assembly functioned and therefore what was amiss. Assuming the hub is secure in the swing arm, its all because of the sealed bearing migrating...
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post #184 of 289 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 02:08 AM
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Thanks Bruce.
I hear you. Now we will have to wait and see what Noel finds on the hubs he'll be investigating.
The hub Noel was also talking about leaving the end Seeger ring out of is another model to yours, not that I condone his practice or do so myself.
My only other idea would be a discrepancy in the axle length or machining process, but that's guessing.

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post #185 of 289 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 03:29 AM
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Still trying to get my head around this.Bruce is talking about the outer snap-ring that secures the wheel side bearing,is that correct? Even if that snap-ring is not secure nothing can move because the stack is all tensioned through the axle by the sprocket side nut.That bearing cannot move at all.The inner snap rings keep the needle roller bearings/seals in place and if they are not in place the bearings cannot move very far,they are an interference fit after all.My hubs only use 1 snap-ring on the wheel side bearings only to lock them together.I am going with 2 theories.One with Donsy,something is not machined correctly and second with Noel,sprocket side nut loose to start with or a part missing.


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post #186 of 289 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 03:54 AM
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No Mitch, Bruce is talking about the inner snap-ring and Paul is talking about the outer snap-ring.
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post #187 of 289 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchy View Post
Still trying to get my head around this.Bruce is talking about the outer snap-ring that secures the wheel side bearing,is that correct? Even if that snap-ring is not secure nothing can move because the stack is all tensioned through the axle by the sprocket side nut.That bearing cannot move at all.The inner snap rings keep the needle roller bearings in place and if they are not in place the bearings cannot move very far,they are an interference fit after all.My hubs only use 1 snap-ring on the wheel side bearings only to lock them together.I am going with 2 theriorys.One with Donsy,something is not machined correctly and second with Noel,sprocket side nut loose to start with or a part missing.
If you take out the entire bearing stack and fit the top hat spacer into the hub, position the sprocket carrier onto the spacer....The sprocket carrier doesnt touch the hub.

Lets have some measurements of a failed assembly which can be compared to a good one.
It's hard to understand it all by looking at diagrams and manuals..
Ive got the physical parts of an F3 here.

The dimensional changes causing the sprocket carrier to touch the hub have to be from the top hat spacer and left.

What causes this I dont know as it needs an inspection by someone clever .

Joe
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post #188 of 289 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by gotojoe View Post
If you take out the entire bearing stack and fit the top hat spacer into the hub, position the sprocket carrier onto the spacer....The sprocket carrier doesnt touch the hub.

Lets have some measurements of a failed assembly which can be compared to a good one.
It's hard to understand it all by looking at diagrams and manuals..
Ive got the physical parts of an F3 here.

The dimensional changes causing the sprocket carrier to touch the hub have to be from the top hat spacer and left.

What causes this I dont know as it needs an inspection by someone clever .

Joe
Give it up! Too hard to find!!

The funny thing is that my bike is going into service and I mentioned this to check. They never heard or experienced any problem with it. Maybe they know how to do it right and I will get a new sprag but that is off topic
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What a beast of a motorcycle!
It growls and rages and flies across the tarmac like a wild animal that has escaped the confinement of a cage and after merely waiting restlessly until the release, will not endure being locked up ever again.


Skye I miss you. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.
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post #189 of 289 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotojoe View Post
If you take out the entire bearing stack and fit the top hat spacer into the hub, position the sprocket carrier onto the spacer....The sprocket carrier doesnt touch the hub.

Lets have some measurements of a failed assembly which can be compared to a good one.
It's hard to understand it all by looking at diagrams and manuals..
Ive got the physical parts of an F3 here.

The dimensional changes causing the sprocket carrier to touch the hub have to be from the top hat spacer and left.

What causes this I dont know as it needs an inspection by someone clever .

Joe
Give it up! Too hard to find!!

The funny thing is that my bike is going into service and I mentioned this to check. They never heard or experienced any problem with it. Maybe they know how to do it right and I will get a new sprag but that is off topic
I ask for a clever fella and whoosh ! Here's Erik ! Happy New year to you !!
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post #190 of 289 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by gotojoe View Post
I ask for a clever fella and whoosh ! Here's Erik ! Happy New year to you !!
Hey funny fella! Thanks and for you too!

What a beast of a motorcycle!
It growls and rages and flies across the tarmac like a wild animal that has escaped the confinement of a cage and after merely waiting restlessly until the release, will not endure being locked up ever again.


Skye I miss you. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.
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