Aftermarket Sprag clutch.Interested? - Page 20 - MVAgusta.net
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post #191 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Spark View Post
Hey everyone. I wanted to post my feedback using @kevjayney photos that he posted and the procedures he outlined. I was forced into replacing the sprag myself because i noticed my bike began experiencing the exact same issues described by others despite having a lithium battery kept charged at all times, along with better ignition cables. As well the only dealer in my area stopped handling MV, so it was just easier for me to do it myself. That's ok, I like (sometimes) getting into the guts of a machine.

At first I thought I might be able to tackle this replacement without removing the airbox and throttle body as he describes in his procedures, but unfortunately that was not the case because in order to remove a couple of the bolts holding the sprag housing in place in the rear, the only way to get in there is as he describes.


First off let me say that kev's photos that he posted earlier are spot on every step of the way. I found I was able to move the throttle body aside without disconnecting everything, but that's probably the only exception I've noticed to his photos.

Before you begin, I highly recommend the following:
  • flex adapter for your hex/torx bit drivers
  • solid 5mm and T30 bit. Yes, I know this is obvious, but a few bolts are really tight. I came close to stripping a couple myself.
  • some type of elongated handle, wrench, extension...whatever.

The last part I suggest this for added torque in removing things. When working on my bikes, I typically use 1/4" drive tools, so a 1/4" ratchet sometimes isn't large enough for a couple of items to really lay into it if you have to.

Airbox - the first problem with tight, small bolts

The first place I came across a problem was trying to remove the lower part of the airbox in order to expose to top of the engine, ignition coils, etc. There are 2 5mm hex bolts that are very tight and you don't have much room for a standard hex bit to fit in there. A flex adapter for your bit can help here. I already happened to have a flexible 5mm hex bit, but most people may not have this and instead a flex adapter might be more of a universal solution. I like Snap-On myself, and item TMU8B would work. The 5mm flex bit I used was TUAM5E.

Starter - two problems for one component

The second area that was a problem was the removal of the starter itself. There 2 bolts holding it in place just as kev describes in his photo, but the problem is that there is no way I found to remove those bolts with a straight bit. I also tried using my T30 flex bit...no luck. The reason why is when I use a flex adapter, the more it is flexed (meaning not straight), I usually dont apply as much torque to loosen because I always worry about the bit slipping and then beginning to strip the head of the bolt. What's interesting about these 2 bolts is that even without any major disassembly of the bike, you can see them on the outside plain as day. The main problem is their location almost immediately below the frame itself. Even with a stubby torx bit the total length of the bit plus a ratchet is too much to fit in there. I don't know how kev did his, but I've attached a picture of what I used to get to mine.

In the first picture I have a standalone T30 bit and a flare nut wrench. In the second picture is my simple assembled solution. Now I suppose you could use a standard open end wrench, but I don't like using those types of wrenches at all because when you put torque on them, there are only 2 contact points and they are typically near the corners and they have a tendency to start to round them off. A flare nut wrench will not do this. You could also use a 6 point box wrench which would probably be better, I just didn't have one available in that size.

Moving on, the next problem I had was removing the starter itself once the bolts were out. I simply could not do this. I could not get enough room made by moving the cables and such around, combined with the starter location and pulling it out toward the frame. So I had to leave the starter in the general area while I then proceeded to work on removing the 5 bolts for the starter housing. (third picture)


Sprag housing and an important warning

The last part of my post is, in my opinion, the most important, so pay attention. Don't make the same mistake I did. When removing the 5 T30 bolts of the starter housing, it is very important to keep your wrench as perfectly straight as possible so that the bit does not slip. I had difficulty with the back 2 and these 2 bolts were very close to becoming stripped out. Why you ask? Well this is the first time I've removed this housing on my bike and you notice the black gasket forming material they used at the factory solidified a bit and can see it from outside the housing. Well, when they applied that gasket material they were generous with it and indiscriminate in how they applied it. All of the bolts I removed had the gasket material on them. This was one major reason why I had to put a bit more muscle than I normally would. Again, I used good bits (I mentioned Snap-on didn't I [IMG class=inlineimg]http://www.mvagusta.net/forum/images/MVagusta_net_2016/smilies/tango_face_smile.png[/IMG] ). My standard T30 bit plus my small 1/4" wrench were able to fit but the ratchet itself was too small to get the needed torque onto the back 2 bolts. I lucked out and had a longer wrench with 1/4" head that I nearly forgot about and was finally able to rescue those 2 bolts.

I managed to get maybe 5 good tries on those back bolts before they were dangerously close to becoming stripped. Thankfully I was able to get them out with the longer wrench that was able to hold very steady and give me the necessary torque to get them loose. I am going to have to order replacements though as there is no way those are going back on my bike.

The gasket material being on the bolts isn't really the main reason why those back 2 were difficult to remove, but it isn't helping the situation either. Mainly it's because of a high torque on the bolts, plus repeated heat cycles. I didn't notice any use of an anti-seize compound on them.

I may post another follow-up post at a later time when I reassemble everything. Just dont get in a hurry if you ever have to do this and make sure you have all the necessary tools. When I reassemble stuff, I'll make another post but that isn't happening for a while especially since I have to order new bolts. I do intend to use a small amount of anti-seize compound on all of the bolts I had problems with.

Don't make the same mistakes I did
Any follow up on this? Any new information after reassembly? Great write up with a lot of info and easy to understand so anything else would be greatly appreciated.

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post #192 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 07:51 PM
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Anymore updates for new sprags and how I can get ahold of one? Will MV cover it?
I ordered one (pre-failure) last week from Italy. Four days door to door (Canada) about $125US delivered part No. 8000C4242 Evolution Bike.

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post #193 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-22-2018, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by manicguitarist View Post
The latest sprag should resolve the issues, and, in the uk at least, is covered even out of warranty. Also, the latest ecu update is required to fully resolve sprag issues.
Is the sprag issue *actually* resolved? Or is it still just a wing and a prayer?

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post #194 of 210 (permalink) Old 01-22-2018, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bad Role Model View Post
Any follow up on this? Any new information after reassembly? Great write up with a lot of info and easy to understand so anything else would be greatly appreciated.
Yeah I did get everything back together. Anything specific you'd like me to comment on? I did not use those T30 bolts in the rear of the housing. Use the same sizes from Racebolt.co.uk instead.

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post #195 of 210 (permalink) Old 02-28-2018, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Amplific View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Role Model View Post
Anymore updates for new sprags and how I can get ahold of one? Will MV cover it?
I ordered one (pre-failure) last week from Italy. Four days door to door (Canada) about $125US delivered part No. 8000C4242 Evolution Bike.

Comes wrapped like a sandwich.
Ordered directly from a MV shop? Where was it ordered from? Is shipping included in your cost? Websites ordered from? Did you install yourself?

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post #196 of 210 (permalink) Old 03-26-2018, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mitchy View Post
I finally got the engineers report on the sprag clutch assembly and it is bad news.To start with the engineer hates sprag clutches in any application,they are inefficient for the job they have to do,they need strong torque loads to work without slipping.
His views on the MV sprag are and quote.
"The MV sprag is a bad design and is too small for the job.Because a 3 cylinder motor shuts down in various positions unlike a 4 cylinder motor which normally stops in the same postion,the 3 cylinder will stop BTDC or ATDC.The sprag will bite in and work better on a compression stroke if that makes sense.This is why 4 cylinder motors do not suffer the same failures.The area the sprag contacts on start up only needs 1 thou of wear to produce problems
Upgrading the sprag assembly would require a larger unit to be made but is not possible due to limited space"
His advice is battery power is critical,so run the best quality battery with the highest CCA rating,look at upgrading your positive battery cable to carry the amperage and make sure your earth points are clean and protected from corrosion.He also said the bikes should have been fitted with a voltage meter/gauge to warn owners of low battery power which would reduce the event of sprag slippage.
I am really sorry I cannot help you guys and I feel like I have failed.I tried.

The following pictures are the original sprag assembly and the upgraded version.The second picture (upgrade) has only one difference in that the driven gear has been strengthened and maybe different heat treatment? The one-way bearing is the same.
Original sprag
Attachment 347105
Upgraded sprag
Attachment 347113

Just a note,we found more wear on the upgraded driven gear than the original.But I have no idea that these sprags are out of the same bike.I was not given that information.
Any advice on what kind of positive battery cable? Do you have a part number or place where I can get an upgraded cable? Do you know where the earth points are located and what I can do to clean them up?

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post #197 of 210 (permalink) Old 03-26-2018, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
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I don't own a F3 so I cannot help you.Hopefully an owner can chime in and help you.
I know aftermarket cables are available.
Cannot remember the company's name though,sorry.


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post #198 of 210 (permalink) Old 03-26-2018, 03:48 PM
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Moto Electric is the company name.

The shop manual has all of the ground points shown.
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post #199 of 210 (permalink) Old 04-30-2018, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mitchy View Post
I finally got the engineers report on the sprag clutch assembly and it is bad news.To start with the engineer hates sprag clutches in any application,they are inefficient for the job they have to do,they need strong torque loads to work without slipping.
His views on the MV sprag are and quote.
"The MV sprag is a bad design and is too small for the job.Because a 3 cylinder motor shuts down in various positions unlike a 4 cylinder motor which normally stops in the same postion,the 3 cylinder will stop BTDC or ATDC.The sprag will bite in and work better on a compression stroke if that makes sense.This is why 4 cylinder motors do not suffer the same failures.The area the sprag contacts on start up only needs 1 thou of wear to produce problems
Upgrading the sprag assembly would require a larger unit to be made but is not possible due to limited space"
His advice is battery power is critical,so run the best quality battery with the highest CCA rating,look at upgrading your positive battery cable to carry the amperage and make sure your earth points are clean and protected from corrosion.He also said the bikes should have been fitted with a voltage meter/gauge to warn owners of low battery power which would reduce the event of sprag slippage.
I am really sorry I cannot help you guys and I feel like I have failed.I tried.

The following pictures are the original sprag assembly and the upgraded version.The second picture (upgrade) has only one difference in that the driven gear has been strengthened and maybe different heat treatment? The one-way bearing is the same.
Original sprag
Attachment 347105
Upgraded sprag
Attachment 347113

Just a note,we found more wear on the upgraded driven gear than the original.But I have no idea that these sprags are out of the same bike.I was not given that information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesca View Post
It would be nice if you had searched a bit...

There is this thread:
http://www.mvagusta.net/forum/showth...193186&page=10

Amazing effort by mitchy "the hub man" and an engineer of his, that finally provided a complete answer to the matter.
Read post #97.


"The MV sprag is a bad design and is too small for the job.
Upgrading the sprag assembly would require a larger unit to be made but is not possible due to limited space"

I particularly enjoyed this part:

"Because a 3 cylinder motor shuts down in various positions unlike a 4 cylinder motor which normally stops in the same postion,the 3 cylinder will stop BTDC or ATDC.The sprag will bite in and work better on a compression stroke if that makes sense.This is why 4 cylinder motors do not suffer the same failures."

So while MV tries to compensate through material science/design advances(because creating the required space to redesign properly would dictate a major redesign of components -- financially/time stressing) it is my understanding that the problem still persists to a degree.
Is there anything a MV owner can do to shut the bike down in a favorable position? As in BTDC or ATDC? The only info I’ve seen is to hold the start button and pull the clutch lever in until the bike begins to turn over. Should we be holding the clutch in before we shut the bike off? Should it be in gear or in neutral when we shut it down? Should we be using the cut off switch or just using the key to shut down the bike? Does any of it matter?

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post #200 of 210 (permalink) Old 05-02-2018, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Donsy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchy View Post
The following pictures are the original sprag assembly and the upgraded version.The second picture (upgrade) has only one difference in that the driven gear has been strengthened and maybe different heat treatment? The one-way bearing is the same.
Original sprag
Attachment 347105
Upgraded sprag
Attachment 347113
Just a note,we found more wear on the upgraded driven gear than the original.But I have no idea that these sprags are out of the same bike.I was not given that information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchy View Post
I have both original and upgraded sprag.The diameters are the same,you cannot go bigger.The only difference is the cut of the gear.[IMG class=inlineimg]http://www.mvagusta.net/forum/images/MVagusta_net_2016/smilies/tango_face_smile.png[/IMG]
Yes, thank you Mitch, looks like somebody wasn't paying attention earlier in the thread, or just jumped on the wagon at the last stop.
I'll start a new thread and put @kevjayney 's pictures in there, it's great for showing people how to replace the part without other nonsense.[IMG class=inlineimg]http://www.mvagusta.net/forum/images/MVagusta_net_2016/smilies/tango_face_wink.png[/IMG]
Have you started this new thread yet? If so where can we find it?

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