Engine Heat - MVAgusta.net
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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Engine Heat

Just got off the phone with a guy from "Two2cool". Here's some food for thought. The oil/coolant heat exchanger transfers heat from one to the other. Oil temps generally run hotter than coolant. Therefore the oil is heating the coolant, particularly in traffic and at rest. Could this be part of the problem? If I could find the space I would totally remove that exchanger and install a dedicated oil cooler. We also discussed the water pump situation. Speeding up the flow of coolant is not necessarily the best thing to do as there is a certain optimum "dwell" time of the coolant in the rad to extract the most heat vs not enough flow to cool the engine. Airflow vs coolant flow. Where's the optimum point?

I am going to add some of this two2cool to my oil and see what shakes out. It works or it doesn't. Either way no harm done. So chew on it boys.

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 10:35 AM
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I always thought the "dwell time" was an important factor and the reason you should not completely remove the thermostat. I am also confused about the heat exchanger. Why wouldn't mv just make the bottom radiator an oil cooler if oil temps were a problem?
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 10:53 AM
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That an interesting info, no doubt.

But what exactly is that two2cool ?
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lee
Just got off the phone with a guy from "Two2cool". Here's some food for thought. The oil/coolant heat exchanger transfers heat from one to the other. Oil temps generally run hotter than coolant. Therefore the oil is heating the coolant, particularly in traffic and at rest. Could this be part of the problem? If I could find the space I would totally remove that exchanger and install a dedicated oil cooler. We also discussed the water pump situation. Speeding up the flow of coolant is not necessarily the best thing to do as there is a certain optimum "dwell" time of the coolant in the rad to extract the most heat vs not enough flow to cool the engine. Airflow vs coolant flow. Where's the optimum point?

I am going to add some of this two2cool to my oil and see what shakes out. It works or it doesn't. Either way no harm done. So chew on it boys.
I don't think it is part of the "problem" since generally you want to maintain an optimum oil temperature. Oil viscocity is dependant on temperature so ideally you want to keep the temperature between a certain range. The oil/coolant heat exchanger is going to keep the viscosity right when its either too hot or too cold. I would not want to try to bypass this system without really studying the temperature ranges etc. since the journal bearings are designed with a specific viscocity in mind.
One thing I have considered (really more as a thought exercise since the temperatures don't really bother me that much) is the switch from the mechanical water pump to an electric pump. The benefit there is that you could remove the thermostat completely as well as operate the water pump at its optimal speed AND in steady state. The big benefit to operating the pump in steady state is that you are not continually accelerating and decelerating the mass of water; instead you are simply putting in enough energy to overcome the frictional losses. You can control the temperature of the system by turning the pump on and off. The only real question is can you purchase a pump that is compact enough to use and runs on 12 V.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobP
I don't think it is part of the "problem" since generally you want to maintain an optimum oil temperature. Oil viscocity is dependant on temperature so ideally you want to keep the temperature between a certain range. The oil/coolant heat exchanger is going to keep the viscosity right when its either too hot or too cold. I would not want to try to bypass this system without really studying the temperature ranges etc. since the journal bearings are designed with a specific viscocity in mind.
One thing I have considered (really more as a thought exercise since the temperatures don't really bother me that much) is the switch from the mechanical water pump to an electric pump. The benefit there is that you could remove the thermostat completely as well as operate the water pump at its optimal speed AND in steady state. The big benefit to operating the pump in steady state is that you are not continually accelerating and decelerating the mass of water; instead you are simply putting in enough energy to overcome the frictional losses. You can control the temperature of the system by turning the pump on and off. The only real question is can you purchase a pump that is compact enough to use and runs on 12 V.
I had the same thought a while back. Like you I haven't really had a problem with overheatting due to living in UK. Demon tweeks sell a couple of compact pumps that run on 12V systems.
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/produc...&pcode=DCP9001
Not sure if they would fit in place or not but maybe worth a look.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
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Right-o about the oil temp/viscosity. I didn't mean to infer that something should be done about oil temp, which it is my understanding should be 220F +or- so as to maintain the vis and not "cook" things out of it. I was just rambling about the oil adding heat to the coolant and it's contribution to high coolant temps.

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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 04:44 PM
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I've tossed this electric water pump idea around for a while now, and whilst Craig Davies make a little pump that would fit the MV, I do wonder as to the fact that the quicker the motor turns the more heat it would make especially if under load, and hence the more water/greater flow it would require to lose this heat

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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mikef4uk
I've tossed this electric water pump idea around for a while now, and whilst Craig Davies make a little pump that would fit the MV, I do wonder as to the fact that the quicker the motor turns the more heat it would make especially if under load, and hence the more water/greater flow it would require to lose this heat
I think if anything the heat from the electric motor would be trivial. If you remove the mechanical components of the water pump you dont have the parasitic drag of the impeller, gears seals and what not. You still need a certain amount of power from the engine to run it (you don't get something for nothing) so if it takes 3 HP to run the engine driven waterpump then electrical system needs to draw 3HP to run the electric pump. I think the losses and efficiencies would be a wash between both systems. But I think what really helps is the steady state operation where the work input only needs to be high enough to overcome the frictional losses. Couple that with the impeller operating at its most efficient range and I think you will have the most efficient system. As I said though, it is a bit of a mental exercise for me since I am not really bothered too much by the overheating.
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobP
I think if anything the heat from the electric motor would be trivial. If you remove the mechanical components of the water pump you dont have the parasitic drag of the impeller, gears seals and what not. You still need a certain amount of power from the engine to run it (you don't get something for nothing) so if it takes 3 HP to run the engine driven waterpump then electrical system needs to draw 3HP to run the electric pump. I think the losses and efficiencies would be a wash between both systems. But I think what really helps is the steady state operation where the work input only needs to be high enough to overcome the frictional losses. Couple that with the impeller operating at its most efficient range and I think you will have the most efficient system. As I said though, it is a bit of a mental exercise for me since I am not really bothered too much by the overheating.
I think Mike was meaning that it makes sense that when the engine is running at higher rpm, it generates more heat, thereby requiring more coolant flow from the faster spinning of the water pump, rather than the constant speed of an electric, regardless of engine rpm?
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2007, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by fazer6
I think Mike was meaning that it makes sense that when the engine is running at higher rpm, it generates more heat, thereby requiring more coolant flow from the faster spinning of the water pump, rather than the constant speed of an electric, regardless of engine rpm?
If you size the pump appropriately it will meet the needs of the engine at maximum RPM giving you the colant flow you need at constant speed. If the engine speed drops you don't necessarily need maximum coolant flow but it won't hurt. It will just drop the temperature faster. If you use a thermistor switch you turn it off if the temp drops too low and turn it back on after the temperature rises again. Not a problem.
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