Quick Shifter Theory - Page 3 - MVAgusta.net
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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 12:43 PM
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I didn't poke nothing at anybody, all I'm trying to say is that when you're braking, you're ECU know's not to pump fuel, or fire the plugs.
I'll leave you all to it then.

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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donsy View Post
I didn't poke nothing at anybody, all I'm trying to say is that when you're braking, you're ECU know's not to pump fuel, or fire the plugs.
I'll leave you all to it then.


I'm still confused. If the ECU cuts fuel and spark when one brakes wouldn't that shut off the engine every time someone toughed the brake pedals? I know this isn't what you technically meant to say, but i can't think of what else it might mean. Still having trouble grasping the whole

Quote:
"braking and about to downshift, your throttle is closed, ignition is already cut"
then the whole

Quote:
"when you're braking, you're ECU know's not to pump fuel, or fire the plugs."
really has me thrown for a loop. Have no idea what the stick poke thing is about but hopefully someone can explain this stuff to me.
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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by varium View Post
I'm still confused. If the ECU cuts fuel and spark when one brakes wouldn't that shut off the engine every time someone toughed the brake pedals? I know this isn't what you technically meant to say, but i can't think of what else it might mean. Still having trouble grasping the whole







then the whole







really has me thrown for a loop. Have no idea what the stick poke thing is about but hopefully someone can explain this stuff to me.

So if your braking before the corner or better still in a corner you lose power? Then that means you run wide and hit oncoming traffic? Nice feature. Lucky the CC has no electronic dizmos like that sounds dangerous lol


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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-25-2014, 09:59 PM
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Lightbulb You guys are bring weird

What happens with your bike, what does it do when you shut the throttle, as opposed to when you have the throttle open? That's all I mean.
I didn't mean it shuts the bike off, that's just stupid.
BSR asked if the quick shifter can cut ignition/fuel on up shift, how does it know, or if can can do the same for down shift.

That is why I said it's not needed for downshifting, if you can't figure that out, I can't help you, I'm out of options on how to explain. Best try Google.

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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donsy
You guys are bring weird
Now why does it have to devolve into name calling? Aren't we above that by now?

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Originally Posted by Donsy View Post
What happens with your bike, what does it do when you shut the throttle, as opposed to when you have the throttle open? That's all I mean.
It decelerates, but doesn't shut off. Which is what was stated iirc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by donsy
I didn't mean it shuts the bike off, that's just stupid.
Well now, we all, or most of us, know this but that is what was being said. This is why i said i know you didn't technically mean that, yet that is how it was reading as typed out. Simply asking for clarification. Is that to much to ask?



Quote:
Originally Posted by donsy
BSR asked if the quick shifter can cut ignition/fuel on up shift, how does it know, or if can can do the same for down shift.
That is why I said it's not needed for downshifting, if you can't figure that out, I can't help you, I'm out of options on how to explain. Best try Google.
Now see, why does it have to go down like this? I thought it was a perfectly reasonable request for clarification and everyone gets chided as if they were kids. No need to talk down to us and no need to be like the child on the play ground who gets upset at others then takes his ball and goes home. Those were honest and earnest requests for a better explanation because its really confusing. I really do hope you come back and help clear the air here so someone else doesn't come along later and read this get some wrong info. It just so happens that i know a little about this stuff. And if i'm lost i can only imagine how unintelligible it must appear to those who have no background with quickshifters. In the mean time i'm going to try to walk the folks through the limited info i have.


.......follow up post coming with basic QS info that may help some folks understand more......
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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 12:07 PM
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Question

Not sure what your problem is varium or whatever your real name is.

1. Weird, yes, because if you buy or own a new generation bike, you should have some grasp of what happens on them.
Sorry if calling you weird was a problem, BSR I hope you understand mate.

2. So if you knew I meant decelerate, why question it ? Maybe you know more than you care to share, read between the lines man, I'm not writing a engineering a manual here, I'm just trying to help because nobody else had anything to say.

3. So if you knew, and state that you know better, why do you need clarification.

It seems to me like you know all the answers, why not just tell us.

Maybe it's a language difference here, but from what I see you questioned my post's first. (BTW, English is not my first language, never mind typing it).

If you knew better, or more about the Y14 quick shifter sensor operation, why not just tell everybody how it works before you go on the attack man.
This is not the first time you attack my post's, yet we have no idea who you are or where you come from.

Show us what you know, I sure don't have the time to do a 2 page explanation, I leave those for the official press release issue's. Really mate, lighten up a bit, I was just having a go.
Can't wait to see your effort.

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Last edited by Donsy; 06-26-2014 at 12:18 PM.
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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by varium View Post
.......follow up post coming with basic QS info that may help some folks understand more......

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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 12:25 PM
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Let me preface this by saying that its been a few years since i've had to purchase any new QS, so technology may have outpaced me by now. Don't claim to know everything about them, but i can provide some basics to help those confused by it to hopefully gain a better understanding.

If there is anyone who knows factually that anything provided below is either incorrect, or needs a technical update, then please feel free to post up the correction(s) along with something to help us understand where/why the original text was incorrect.




Quick shifter: Its function is to interrupt the ignition or fueling momentarily to allow for shifting of the transmission without using the clutch.


In order to better understand the reason one needs to interrupt the engine one needs to understand why. The reason is because the transmission can not be shifted under load.* As long as there is a load on the transmission it will not change gears. Well, if you try to bang the gears into each other i'm sure it could be done, but its not a good idea if you wish to keep from rounding off teeth and dogs in your gearbox. Load works both ways, be it under acceleration or deceleration. Most of the time folks only think of clutchless upshifts during acceleration, but clutchless can be for downshifts under decel too.



Is a quick shifter actually needed to accomplish clutchless shifting? Technically, no. But if you wish to concentrate on going faster then its a must for today's sport/race bikes. As mentioned earlier one only needs to unload the tension in the driveline to be able to shift gears. Without using a clutch this can be accomplished under acceleration by barely rolling off the throttle for just a split second. We are talking barely a twitch of the throttle for a minute second while applying pressure with your foot for shifting to the next gear. This technique can also be applied for downshifting on deceleration with engine brake, but it is far more tricky to master. Even the best riders in the world have trouble doing this. So unless you have some super fast learning curve its not suggested to be bothered with. The general technique is while the engine is braking/decelerating the bike one prepares their shift at the foot. With the ever so slightest blip of the throttle one sends the shift lever into the next gear.(its called bliping the throttle when in decel, and rolling off the throttle under accel) The amount of blip is so minute that it is hard for manual manipulation without sending the motor back to acceleration. It takes lots of practice to find not to much throttle and not to little. The reason this works is because for that minute split second the throttle cracks a blip the engine is no longer under decel/braking thus freeing up the torque on the tranny and allowing the shift to go through without any load obstruction.

Being that a computer is able to apply these techniques faster and with more reliable results it only makes sense to allow them to take over those chores. Enter the quick shifter.......


A quick shifter is composed from either a micro switch of load cell(sometimes called a pressure switch). Those using a micro switch utilize an on/off function. With a micro switch an interrupt signal is sent the moment the switch is thrown. If you like to ride your shifter this might not be the way to go because even the slightest bump can active the fuel/ignition interrupt and if you aren't purposefully moving the shifter to the next gear when this happens one might find themselves in a false neutral, or worse yet rounding off gear teeth. That is to say there is nothing wrong with a micro switch quick shifter as they work very well. Even have a couple myself. Just something to consider if you ride with your foot in constant heavy contact of the shift lever. Micro switch QS's can be set up for tension or compression. Have not yet seen one for both....although that doesn't mean there isn't something out there.

The other type of QS will use a load cell/pressure switch. These are usually in tension or compression form, but not both. With newer bikes some are now produced with both which we will get into later. For the time being a load cell is utilized by the amount of force placed on the unit. At a predetermined load setting the unit will send the interrupt signal to the fuel or ignition. The pressure/tension required to send the signal can be static or dynamic. Static would be predetermined by the manufacturer and not adjustable. Dynamic would be a range provided by the manufacturer that the consumer could choose from. Some like more pressure/tension required while others go the other way. WHAT A LOAD CELL DOES NOT DO IS DETERMINE THE AMOUNT OF INTERRUPT TIME FROM THE PRESSURE/TENSION IT RECEIVES AS INPUT. Those are 2 different functions with one being a force and the other time. Time is a function that can be utilized with either a mirco switch based QS or load cell QS. Some have an adjustable timer built into casing the load cell is held within, but they are independent of each other.

So lets talk about timing. The amount of time the fuel/ignition interrupt takes place is in the realm of micro seconds. The reason some have adjustments for timing is because under different loads and gears one may wish for a longer or shorter interrupt time. Its usually down to personal preference and the fact that these QS's have to work on a wide array of applications all of which may require a slightly different set up. Manufacturers for quick shifters usually make a timing function as an add on to the quickshifter itself. Some like some have incorporated the timer into the casing that holds the qs cell, and others have made 'stand along' units which use a QS wired into a ecu/timing box that then sends signals to the bike. There are many different packages to achieve relatively the same thing. One generally wants longer interrupt times for shorter/lower gears. And some claim the difference between interrupting fuel and ignition will determine how long ones timing may need to be for each gear. I haven't really looking into that so take it with a grain of salt.

Interrupting fuel or ignition will accomplish the same function of allowing the driveline to unload for a millisecond and allow a clutchless shift. Not saying there isn't a company out there that interupts both, but i've never come across it. Its usually one or the other. Plus it wouldn't make since to do both if one was looking to utilize clutchless downshifts. Interrupting both fuel and spark might not be such a good idea on deceleration. Well get into this in the next post which touches on blip features of newer bikes.






*Technically it may be more like zero load to very minute loads. The reason a say this is that every atv and dirt bike i've ever owned all could be shifted up or down without the clutch. The only conclusion i draw from this is that there is not enough load in the driveline to prevent clutchless shifts. Be it the weight of the vehicle is not enough, not enough power from the motor, not enough engine brake; or a combo of them all. Its just a guess at this juncture because i never bothered to research it.
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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 12:35 PM
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Good quote.

That is pretty old info, but some is still correct and applicable to the OP, that's why we now have strain gauge tech. today.

The auto downshift blip is still another story.

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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 01:11 PM
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Regarding clutchless downshifts...........



As mentioned in the earlier post this can be done. However, it is not really all that consistently repeatable via a human. Plus it can be really dangerous for an inexperienced rider to attempt to learn. Better to concentrate on better riding technique first. Never been fast enough to try to teach myself this so i have no first hand experience other than trying it on abandon roads and in the woods on atvs and dirt bikes.

Much better to leave it to a computer which, if properly programmed, can provide reliable and repeatable results.


So how does one unload the driveline when decelerating? First off the engine has to be running, and you'll see why in a moment. Second, in order to unload the tranny from decel one needs to provide an equal and opposing force to counteract the load force. The ONLY way to do this is to add more rpms. In order to do this one needs to blip the throttle. Being that this is such a difficult technique to do manually it wasn't until the advent of the drive by wire era than this was made possible.*
A computer that is properly programmed can take control over this function and provide the correct amount of throttle adjustment to make the blip in the rpms the correct amount in order to unload the tranny and not upset the bike.** Again, the fuel and ignition are never cut, or achieving this feat would be impossible. Interrupting fuel or ignition is only done when the bike is accelerating.


So how does the Agusta know when to quick shift under accel, and when to blip under decel? It is a unit with a tension/compression cell, or 2 compression cells stacked back to back. Haven't looked at the unit personally yet. Either way, when pressing the shifter one way for upshift it will know to use the QS feature and vise-versa for the downshift. So how do they get it to where the blip doesn't upset the bike, and how does it know how much to blip, etc.? The computer needs various inputs from the bike such as TPS, speed/rpm, possibly gear and i'm sure other data points. Then take those inputs and compare that with the data someone collected while testing 1000's to 100's of 1000's of down shifts in all kinds of different senarios and the computer figures out the blip function using on an algorithm based on collating all those data points. Yeah, for computers, math, and technology.

Granted it doesn't take as much raw skill to drive a bike with all the electro do dads on it, but bikes are so much more powerful and faster these days that much of the time human reactions to faster scenarios is no longer quick enough to process and act upon in a changing landscape....race track or road.



For an example of someone trying to work through how to improve such a function feel free to check out what some folks on the Panigale are doing with software regarding the same thing.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...gbv=1&&ct=clnk








* For the older tried and true drive by 'cable' technology there is one company that says they have figured out how to accomplish reliable results by using engine vacuum. Apparently its been tested in lots of race cars over the years so it seems pretty reliable. Just don't know about how much testing on bikes has been done. Should be transferable, but not certain......haven't really looked into it.



** There is also a company that has been setting up a blip feature as a stand alone unit for some drive by wire bikes. However, they use a clutch switch to achieve this function. And i think its currently only available for certain year R1s.
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