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F4 Radiator..Cracking problems..Blue Mist

27K views 80 replies 32 participants last post by  Nastin 
#1 · (Edited)
I had owned my 09 1000R 312 for a few months only and I went for a ride into North Wales...20 miles outside Porthmadog a strange aroma wafted upwards from the area of the top radiator and I stopped to investigate.

Well it wasn't long before the " Blue Mist " descended and I worked out that the rad had cracked ..funnily enough where they all seem to crack at the top left corner.

Involved then was a 140 odd mile recovery home for me and the bike..

and loss of the bike for a few months waiting for the warranty approval and the part to arrive from Italy and the fitting and the 250 mile round trip to the dealer etc etc etc.

The fault I believe is due to the radiator being not strong enough at the top left edge which is supporting the weight of two water filled rads...The right side does not from anecdotal evidence appear to crack which it would be reasonable to surmise is due to that side beibg supported by the cooling fan acting as a stressed member.

Is there a solution ?
I noticed that one engineering solution is a bracket stay to reduced the stretch on the top radiator which splits it.

It transfers the load on that side directly to the frame bracket and so there is very low loading on the radiator Top edge...Clearly a much improved situation.

So, Following a few requests from forum members..I've had a small batch of these Radiator support Brackets manufactured in Stainless Steel...and tested them on my spare Radiator for fit...

I've attached a few pictures to try to illustrate...Hopefully these will reduce breakdown of the rads...which is an expensive game if you are out of warranty.

I'm going to fit on to my 312 next week. I was told by the dealer that the new warranty rad was just as likely to crack as the old one. I see this as a situation not good each time I go out for a ride.

I'll post some pics. I believe there is no need to drain the system and it should be very easy to slide the bracket in to position by undoing two bolts..

It is important also to note that this bracket does not touch the back of the radiator so will not damage the water galleries.

I'll post in for sale ..

I just added a pic showing how the top "eye" of the bracket fits into the grommet. This is important for location and vibration absorption..

joe
 

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#2 ·
interesting post joe but just to remind unfortunate souls who do suffer a cracked rad that there is a good chance that the factory will honour a claim on a bike that is out of warranty as they did with me - mv are aware that this is a common fault - simply take your duff rad to your nearest mv dealer and submit a claim.
colin
 
#4 ·
Thank you Colin..and yes I have done just that with my 312..The problem for me is that I do not wish to ride out with the inherent problem still there

There's not much gain for me in going back time and time again for a replacement rad...and some owners have ...

joe
 
#5 ·
HA! Got mine coming!

Great idea and well worth the price.
I am very big on preventing problems before they occur.
I want to be able to ride my bikes when ever I feel like it
and weather permits. I do not desire to be waiting for something to be repaired or replaced when a little proactive action on my part could have
prevented the problem in the first place. This is one of those opportunities that come along to save money, time and mental stress.
Thanks Joe!
 
#7 ·
Hi Joe, I am not quite clear on where the bracket is breaking. Is the top or bottom radiator? (I just read your post again and it sounds like the top radiator, but if you could confirm I would appreciate it) Also, can you post a photo of the bracket installed on the bike. Also also, this sounds like something I would like to have. Let me know how to get one from you and how much.
Thanks, Barry
 
#17 ·
Hi Joe, with your pics in some you have the bracket at the top against the bracket with the rubber grommet on the outside then in the others the grommet is between the bracket and and support. Which way do you suggest we fit this when the bracket arrives?

Rob
 
#22 ·
Joe,

I have two questions:

1. Do you know if the MY2010+F4 have this issue? I have been fortunate enough not to at this stage.
2. Can you send me a photo of a cracked radiator? I have a hypothesis of what the stress issue is and how your support strut fixes it but would like a photo to attempt to work it out.

Regards,

Pete
 
#23 · (Edited)
Hi Pete,

The 2010 F4s have a top radiator and an oil cooler not a bottom water rad hanging on to the bottom of the top rad. This is an entirely different set up and design and I have heard of no problems on the forum with either over heating or cracking of these radiators. Significantly there are locations on the side tanks of the new top rad where the weight is supported,,

I don't have a picture of a cracked rad...I had a cracked rad but the dealer sent it back to MV Agusta in Italy.

There was a tiny split in the water gallery/rail at the reverse side and top left of the top radiator.

cheers

joe
 
#24 ·
Joe,

Thanks for the quick reply, in lieu of photos here is my hypothesis:

Bottom line: I agree that the strut is a suitable modification for the failures presented.

Caveat: I have not done mathematical calculations to confirm - why this remains and hypothesis, not a theory!

The comments about the location of the cracks on the radiators indicate to me that the top left mount is putting vibration through the top left of the radiator. This is causing a fatigue fracture, known as the failures that riders are finding.

The proposed solution changes the elastic properties of the mount. Ie: the elasticity of the strut is less than the elasticity of the radiator itself, therefore, there is less vibration (hence fatigue) in the critical stress areas of the radiator (crack propagation areas).

The unknown is whether vibration has been transferred to other mounts as well as the amplitude of the transferred vibration. If the amplitude of vibration exceeds the elasticity of the material in the new location then cracks are likely to form somewhere else, most likely in the top right of the radiator. If this does to occur - no dramas and your strut becomes and enduring solution.

Overall - my educated intuition suggests this is sound solution. I make this judgement on the basis of a direct steel structure reducing vibration throughout the whole radiator.

I would buy one if my rad failed!
 
#25 · (Edited)
Thanks Pete,

I'll need a pint of Guinness in front of me to fully ingest your post : )

The twin rad has a fan on the rightside acting as a stressed member.

This possibly acts as a fulcrum or pivot leading to an awful lot of strain on the top left of the rad...and so yes I imagine vibration would be able to feed in to the top gallery as the rad is like "a tight guitar string.".

The bikes originally had a single rad and through cooling issues were given the second rad..adding weight tugging sagging that top left edge.

The bracket kinda gives the whole left side a " leg up " transferring the load from the top left matrix and into the frame bracket.

From a vibration consideration the Radiator support is rubber mounted at the top grommet

That's how I see it....There are no guarantees with this but it just has to help...: )

joe
 
#27 ·
F4Pete,
Spoken like a true Engineer! :)
As an NDE, None Distructive Examination, type here is my take on it.
The support point on the top radiator is over loaded and it is broken or soon will be. The Gotojoe fix spreads the load reducing the concentrated stress on the thin material of the water jacket over a larger area. I have no doubt that fatigue most likely is the failure mechanism with the mount to tank interface being a stress riser. With the reduction of load to this area by the use of the Gotojoe strut the potential for eventual failure must be reduced. True also the question arises is the fatigue being induced by high or low frequency or a combination of the two. Vibration from the engine running combined with road related shocks which cause fatigue at lower frequency but at much higher loading can also contribute to failure in this area.
Bottom line, the Gotojoe Strut will help reduce the potential failure in this area by helping to support the weight of both upper and lower radiators by transferring it directly to the frame instead of focusing it on the weak area at the top of the upper radiator.
 
#28 ·
failure?

come on folks its just a shitty design.....like the heat exchanger, how much water goes through a 5' long 1/4" tube?

you support radiators at the strongest point, the seam between the tanks and the core end plates and from the bottom.......and how long have cars been doing it that way:wtf:

aluminum work hardens and then cracks/breaks, its just the nature of the beast
 
#29 · (Edited)
Noel is spot on. MV changed the design radically for 2010 models. They replaced the intercooler with a nice smart oil cooler ( dispensing with the 1/4 tube) The new water radiator is also much stronger and has a denser cooler matrix.

Significantly they also fitted captive fasteners into the side tanks at which location the rads are now "braced". This isn't quite "at the seam" as Noel desires. There are limitations I guess working within the frame area.

If you look at the 2010 water rad you can see the captive fasteners on the right side of the tank. Also note there are two fans and each fan acts as a stress member..The transfer pipe also supports some of the weight of the oil cooler..and isn't oil lighter than water ; )

On the pre 2010 rad you can see the top left below the bracket is being pulled out.

Noel and Donsy have done great work on re-thinking the system and basically came up with the 2010 system before MV did : )

I am fitting a 2010 cooling system to my 2007 bike...almost there...cost me alot of £$£$£. The parts are to date very difficult to locate... and I'm fitting a £ 19.75 brace to my 312 ; ) .

joe
 

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#30 ·
evening all well
i received my bracket yeasterday and have now fitted it
a fiddley job of sorts but done with the rad still in place
easest way remove side fairings n belly pan
remove nose cone
remove air tube
undo the 2 rad bolts
pull top rubber out
fit brace and lightly bolt up
then tighten up once happy
(i did try and do it while the air tube was in place but i couldn't get the bolt in and started as theres not a lot of room thought fuk this and remove the tube easy became a doddle lol)
worth it fantasic i got 06 f4 1000 but rather sepend the £19.75 for a peice of mind
many thanks joe
jas
 
#31 ·
sorry guys for got to add you need to pull the rad forward from where it bolts past the frame fixing lug then push to the left and let the rad drop it makes it easier for fitting the gromet to the strut a little oil / washing up liquid helps it slot togehter
mins stripped at he front end at mo so i've got easy acess with no air tubes on
 
#32 ·
extra shit?

Joe;
if they had divided the left tank, the radiator outlet would have been on the left too......eliminating the crossover tube, hose and 2 clamps

look at your oil cooler.....they did it there:wtf::wtf:

to quote Boss Kettering "parts left out never break, and don't cost anything".....

founder of Delco, VP at General Motors, inventor of the electric starter, points ignitions and ethyl gasoline and 300 other patents
 
#33 ·
Joe;
if they had divided the left tank, the radiator outlet would have been on the left too......eliminating the crossover tube, hose and 2 clamps
Ducati do that on the water cooled monsters..................I know because I had one that would overheat at idle, turned out the divider plate in the LH tank that should'nt quite seal perfectly (to allow some HOT water circulation before the thermostat opens) wasn't sealed enough so even when the stat opened fully the hot water would just flow through the side tank.........................try convincing the dealer about that one!!
 
#34 · (Edited)
Agree Noel 100 %

For my little project however, I've decided to work with what I've got and not cut into pristine parts any more than I have to.

It would be a shame.

The location where I would have put a horizintal divider in is also exactly where I am going to put the temperature sensor ...

I'm sure you have noticed that there is a radiator outlet with a rubber bung in it on the lower left of the 2010 Rad.

I don't know why that is.

joe
 
#40 · (Edited)
Fitting the Radiator support

Guys,

When fitting please slide over the top grommet FIRST and bolt up at bottom last. If you do other way then there is no free play to lift over grommet.

Because the top is rubber mounted I suggest you slide a bit of card in prior to tightening the bolt .This also ensures that in use the bracket is kept clear of the radiator top edge .

Use a bit of lube to ease the grommet over and use a screwdriver to centralize the the bottom hole as you don't want to put the bolt in askew and cross thread.

I've put a couple of pictures here to illustrate fitting relative to grommet and spacers etc.

Cheers

Joe
 

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#41 ·
I finally got around to fixing a Rad support bracket to my 312 today.

I found it took about 25 minutes in total and was very easy to do.

2 allen keys and one 8mm wrench/spanner

Remove left side fairing,
Remove left side mirror plate
Remove Cockpit fairing
Remove left side air tube

Remove left side top Rad bolt
Remove left side bottom Rad bolt
Slide Radiator support bracket onto top grommet and fit bolt loosely
Slide bottom hole in line and fit bolt
Tighten bolts and refit fairings

The significant thing is that I did not need to undo the Rad hoses or slide the Radiators off their mounts.

There was ample room to work.

Good feeling knowing my Rad stands a better chance of survival !

joe
 
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