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Old 04-29-2012, 05:20 AM   #21
mikef4uk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotojoe View Post
So guys, Is the real problem with the bikes or with the hoops that Brussels dictates the manufacturers jump through...?

jus askin'

joe
I think so yes, modern ecu amd FBW helps, not meaning here to start another F3 war but I have a feeling the issue with the F3 low down engine response may be more FBW related than purely fuelling.

I suspect the ecu may be trying to get around the fuelling flat spots by altering the FBW and as yet MV have not quite got it correct, but I think they will get it correct, or acceptable, theres probably that many feedback loops going on with lambda FBW etc that it's tripping over itself
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Previously (and about 40 others)748SP, S4, S4R, 98R1, 2000 F4, F41000S, F41000R, 08R1, 09R1, S1000RR, RSV4 Factory aPRC in Garage now
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:10 PM   #22
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The 1098 fan is, imo, vastly superior to the MV. Lighter, moves more air and uses less current. Twice as many blades which are curved and have a ring around their ends to keep the airflow from "sliding" off the blade tips. Poor man's ducted fan. I believe the hot setup would be 3 1098 fans. If one wanted to go to all the trouble and work to engineer the setup.

Next time you're around a 1098 take a look at the air inlet area of the fairing compared to an MV. Much larger and less restricted by the the fender and forks. MV is suffocating compared to the Duc.
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:35 PM   #23
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Where can I find out how to wire a third fan, a Ducati 1098 fan, into the system?
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:38 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagerider View Post
Where can I find out how to wire a third fan, a Ducati 1098 fan, into the system?
I just spliced into the excisting wiring as used by the upper fan, and have had no problems at all.
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Old 04-29-2012, 06:40 PM   #25
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Thumbs down Fbw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikef4uk View Post
Noel, they need the FBW to remove the flat spots that high performance motorcycles comforming to modern emission regulations need.

I once saw the Throttle input v FBW delivery of a cranky R1, the FBW could be around 20% different from what the throttle was asking for.

Modern planes also FBW the throttles for fuel efficiency and a smoother flight.

A 1.6M MV ecu is not modern Noel
If they can't get the fueling right, why would you add a second layer of electronic tomfoolery to fix it?
look at the mileage the MVs get! MY Brutale is between 21.83-24.98MPG, no cat with a MicroTec

meeting emissions? are you kidding?

oh, know about the secondary butterflys etc.......why can't they get it right

modern planes? the 1st Boeing 787 was rolled out last Friday
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...GmT_story.html

yes, it has throttles;
http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers.../oct_i_ca1.jpg

Boeing's statement on the 787;
http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers...ber/i_ca1.html

Boeing 747-400 cockpit;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/taken_by_tom/931401890/
more throttles

Mike, i know the 1.6M is an antique POS, that is one of my complaints

i have a friend Bob, that makes ECUs..... you answer a few questions and the software writes a map for you.....blown, turboed or NA doesn't matter just answer the questions

you work in DOS, there is no injector time (because its not linear), its% of injector flow
open loop? closed? you pick when, where....you want to run closed off EGT? staged injectors? no problem
have a street bike and want to run a turbo, with nitrous and water/methanol injection? he has a piggy back for that

want an accurate speedometer for Bonneville? because of wheelspin problems at over 200MPH? it uses GPS, accurate to about 0.25MPH according to the Mile 4 clocks
my buddy JW datalogged 37MPH of wheelspin at 208.xxx MPH

here everyone have a laugh......

walk out in the sun with your cell phone, can't see the screen can you?

Bob figured this out in the '80s.....there is a photo cell on the front of his Lambda meters so you can see it day or night


all the electronic geniuses in the world haven't figured it out........
thats why I want a minimum of electronic bullshit on my bikes

does his stuff work?
bring your 2012 F41000RR down to run against his parts hauler and Idaho run '90s BMW R-1100RT
with touring fairing saddle bags and a top box, internally absolutely stock......be ready to be humbled 0-150MPH
it makes boost at idle

he says over 150MPH "its too aerodynamically unstable"

I know Bob, i'd probably back out at 130

Bob's 10 racing secrets;
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/secrets.htm

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Old 04-30-2012, 03:53 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theknurl View Post
If they can't get the fueling right, why would you add a second layer of electronic tomfoolery to fix it?
look at the mileage the MVs get! MY Brutale is between 21.83-24.98MPG, no cat with a MicroTec


I can't reply to all of that Noel

I get the same mpg out of my 4.2 litre V8 R8, can't be electronics that's wrong with the Brutale, it must be more basic like engine design
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MV's all gone now, still have a soft spot for MV's, waiting for MV to tick all my boxes again.
Previously (and about 40 others)748SP, S4, S4R, 98R1, 2000 F4, F41000S, F41000R, 08R1, 09R1, S1000RR, RSV4 Factory aPRC in Garage now
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:47 AM   #27
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Wink fueling?

Mike;
nothing wrong with the motor........just a few minor complaints

the external oil line could be removed by drilling a few holes
and why 2 oil pumps?
why not sump>pump>filter>cooler>motor>sump?

why can't it be electronics that are wrong?
everything gets released as a Beta version, 'hey, lets have the public be the test Guinea pigs for us'

most bikes have terrible fueling and ignition maps, thats why there are flat spots, holes and excessive fuel consumption
the Factories won't hire people the know fueling and ignition because:

1.they are cheap
2.they are stupid
3.their egos get in the way
4.any or all of the above

here's Adam's view of the ignition map;
"The original F4 750 had a horrible advance map - never seen anything like it !

For example, 3 degrees throttle:
1800rpm, 20 degrees advance
2700rpm, 60 degrees advance
3300rpm, 35 degrees advance
4000rpm, 60 degrees advance

It's like that all the way through the map !
"

all this stuff was figured out a long time ago by old farts

the electronics clowns don't look at how things were done for a 100+years in fueling a motor.....because they think that processor speed is the Holy Grail that will fix everything

my BMW R-1150GS sitting on it's stand has an A/F ratio of ~12.2 at 4,000RPM thats 0.6 points richer than max acceleration fueling 12.8
my Aprilia RSVR shows about the same number DECELERATING from 4,500 down
at cruise, its at max power fueling 13.5???? why???
pulling fuel out on decel gets you ~40mi/tank more

one of my friends hacked the Bosch Motronic ECU on the BMW bikes......
'hey Knurl, you got any idea what they are trying to do? look at it, its zig zag lines' i have no idea what they were trying to do.....they don't either

seen graphically fuel maps are smooth curves......with minor bumps for pipe acoustics
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Last edited by theknurl : 05-02-2012 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:25 PM   #28
mikef4uk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theknurl View Post
Mike;
nothing wrong with the motor........just a few minor complaints


here's Adam's view of the ignition map;
"The original F4 750 had a horrible advance map - never seen anything like it !

For example, 3 degrees throttle:
1800rpm, 20 degrees advance
2700rpm, 60 degrees advance
3300rpm, 35 degrees advance
4000rpm, 60 degrees advance

It's like that all the way through the map !
"
Why does it only do 22mpg then Noel?

Could the ignition be emission related?
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MV's all gone now, still have a soft spot for MV's, waiting for MV to tick all my boxes again.
Previously (and about 40 others)748SP, S4, S4R, 98R1, 2000 F4, F41000S, F41000R, 08R1, 09R1, S1000RR, RSV4 Factory aPRC in Garage now
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:18 AM   #29
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Thumbs down 22mpg?

Mike;
lets agree that for what ever reason that my Brutale gets 22-25MPG around town, and that its not for emissions reasons......unless the laws are upside down (a likely prospect)

whether this is important to regulating government bodies seems to say its not ......lets leave profiling government names out of this

since the ECU does not reference MAP (manifold absolute pressure)
the ignition map will be a race curve......not conducive to good fuel mileage
ie; not an emissions map

some how that works for government regulators, obviously not the sharpest pencils in the box

Mike, right now my shop is upside down for a major reorganization, most of the machines are on rollers......i have the stock to make 02 bungs for the Brutale and a 2 channel Lambda meter to go on it.
i have a datalogger but i'm old fashioned

oh i'll fix it don't worry
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:10 AM   #30
mikef4uk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theknurl View Post
Mike;
lets agree that for what ever reason that my Brutale gets 22-25MPG around town, and that its not for emissions reasons......unless the laws are upside down (a likely prospect)

whether this is important to regulating government bodies seems to say its not ......lets leave profiling government names out of this

since the ECU does not reference MAP (manifold absolute pressure)
the ignition map will be a race curve......not conducive to good fuel mileage
ie; not an emissions map

some how that works for government regulators, obviously not the sharpest pencils in the box

Mike, right now my shop is upside down for a major reorganization, most of the machines are on rollers......i have the stock to make 02 bungs for the Brutale and a 2 channel Lambda meter to go on it.
i have a datalogger but i'm old fashioned

oh i'll fix it don't worry
One of the tricks of the mapper to comply with emission regs is large amounts of ignition advance, I have a sneaky feeling that if you matched the huge advance to road speed it would appear at the emission test speeds.


I guess it's a space thing that motorcycles do not use MAF sensors or MAP sensors and just rely on TPS and lambda, also the vast majority of very high performance cars no longer use individual cylinder butterflies, they just use one (or two on V8/V10 etc(one for each bank)) again a space thing on motocycles?

When I had the S1000RR the PCV used one lambda in one of the four downpipes I wasn't convinced about that one but DJ reckoned they had tried a lambda bung in the collector and it made no difference.........................I guess it would have with an engine/injector problem
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MV's all gone now, still have a soft spot for MV's, waiting for MV to tick all my boxes again.
Previously (and about 40 others)748SP, S4, S4R, 98R1, 2000 F4, F41000S, F41000R, 08R1, 09R1, S1000RR, RSV4 Factory aPRC in Garage now
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