# F4 Radiator..Cracking problems..Blue Mist - Page 3 - MVAgusta.net
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:20 PM   #21
rob
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Cool thanks again Joe for the help.

Rob
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:40 AM   #22
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Joe,

I have two questions:

1. Do you know if the MY2010+F4 have this issue? I have been fortunate enough not to at this stage.
2. Can you send me a photo of a cracked radiator? I have a hypothesis of what the stress issue is and how your support strut fixes it but would like a photo to attempt to work it out.

Regards,

Pete
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F4Pete View Post
Joe,

I have two questions:

1. Do you know if the MY2010+F4 have this issue? I have been fortunate enough not to at this stage.
2. Can you send me a photo of a cracked radiator? I have a hypothesis of what the stress issue is and how your support strut fixes it but would like a photo to attempt to work it out.

Regards,

Pete

Hi Pete,

The 2010 F4s have a top radiator and an oil cooler not a bottom water rad hanging on to the bottom of the top rad. This is an entirely different set up and design and I have heard of no problems on the forum with either over heating or cracking of these radiators. Significantly there are locations on the side tanks of the new top rad where the weight is supported,,

I don't have a picture of a cracked rad...I had a cracked rad but the dealer sent it back to MV Agusta in Italy.

There was a tiny split in the water gallery/rail at the reverse side and top left of the top radiator.

cheers

joe

Last edited by gotojoe : 05-01-2012 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:12 AM   #24
F4Pete
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Joe,

Thanks for the quick reply, in lieu of photos here is my hypothesis:

Bottom line: I agree that the strut is a suitable modification for the failures presented.

Caveat: I have not done mathematical calculations to confirm - why this remains and hypothesis, not a theory!

The comments about the location of the cracks on the radiators indicate to me that the top left mount is putting vibration through the top left of the radiator. This is causing a fatigue fracture, known as the failures that riders are finding.

The proposed solution changes the elastic properties of the mount. Ie: the elasticity of the strut is less than the elasticity of the radiator itself, therefore, there is less vibration (hence fatigue) in the critical stress areas of the radiator (crack propagation areas).

The unknown is whether vibration has been transferred to other mounts as well as the amplitude of the transferred vibration. If the amplitude of vibration exceeds the elasticity of the material in the new location then cracks are likely to form somewhere else, most likely in the top right of the radiator. If this does to occur - no dramas and your strut becomes and enduring solution.

Overall - my educated intuition suggests this is sound solution. I make this judgement on the basis of a direct steel structure reducing vibration throughout the whole radiator.

I would buy one if my rad failed!
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:00 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F4Pete View Post
Joe,

Thanks for the quick reply, in lieu of photos here is my hypothesis:

Bottom line: I agree that the strut is a suitable modification for the failures presented.

Caveat: I have not done mathematical calculations to confirm - why this remains and hypothesis, not a theory!

The comments about the location of the cracks on the radiators indicate to me that the top left mount is putting vibration through the top left of the radiator. This is causing a fatigue fracture, known as the failures that riders are finding.

The proposed solution changes the elastic properties of the mount. Ie: the elasticity of the strut is less than the elasticity of the radiator itself, therefore, there is less vibration (hence fatigue) in the critical stress areas of the radiator (crack propagation areas).

The unknown is whether vibration has been transferred to other mounts as well as the amplitude of the transferred vibration. If the amplitude of vibration exceeds the elasticity of the material in the new location then cracks are likely to form somewhere else, most likely in the top right of the radiator. If this does to occur - no dramas and your strut becomes and enduring solution.

Overall - my educated intuition suggests this is sound solution. I make this judgement on the basis of a direct steel structure reducing vibration throughout the whole radiator.

I would buy one if my rad failed!

Thanks Pete,

I'll need a pint of Guinness in front of me to fully ingest your post : )

The twin rad has a fan on the rightside acting as a stressed member.

This possibly acts as a fulcrum or pivot leading to an awful lot of strain on the top left of the rad...and so yes I imagine vibration would be able to feed in to the top gallery as the rad is like "a tight guitar string.".

The bikes originally had a single rad and through cooling issues were given the second rad..adding weight tugging sagging that top left edge.

The bracket kinda gives the whole left side a " leg up " transferring the load from the top left matrix and into the frame bracket.

From a vibration consideration the Radiator support is rubber mounted at the top grommet

That's how I see it....There are no guarantees with this but it just has to help...: )

joe

Last edited by gotojoe : 05-01-2012 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merc07 View Post
So what is the difference with the newer rads, build quality or a different design ?

Cheers
Adam

Quote:
Originally Posted by adecritten View Post
From what I understand they were produced by a different manufacturer to the originals, possibly the quality of materials wasn't as good either.

Pretty sure the one that died on my bike was a koyo.
It looks to me to be poor mounting and support that causes the leakage. You can see the top left mount on failed radiators has been pulled upwards (the rest of the rad has sagged) from the weight hanging off it and in turn stressed the top tube enough to split it over time.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:54 PM   #27
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F4Pete,
Spoken like a true Engineer!
As an NDE, None Distructive Examination, type here is my take on it.
The support point on the top radiator is over loaded and it is broken or soon will be. The Gotojoe fix spreads the load reducing the concentrated stress on the thin material of the water jacket over a larger area. I have no doubt that fatigue most likely is the failure mechanism with the mount to tank interface being a stress riser. With the reduction of load to this area by the use of the Gotojoe strut the potential for eventual failure must be reduced. True also the question arises is the fatigue being induced by high or low frequency or a combination of the two. Vibration from the engine running combined with road related shocks which cause fatigue at lower frequency but at much higher loading can also contribute to failure in this area.
Bottom line, the Gotojoe Strut will help reduce the potential failure in this area by helping to support the weight of both upper and lower radiators by transferring it directly to the frame instead of focusing it on the weak area at the top of the upper radiator.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:21 PM   #28
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Thumbs down failure?

come on folks its just a shitty design.....like the heat exchanger, how much water goes through a 5' long 1/4" tube?

you support radiators at the strongest point, the seam between the tanks and the core end plates and from the bottom.......and how long have cars been doing it that way

aluminum work hardens and then cracks/breaks, its just the nature of the beast
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:31 AM   #29
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Noel is spot on. MV changed the design radically for 2010 models. They replaced the intercooler with a nice smart oil cooler ( dispensing with the 1/4 tube) The new water radiator is also much stronger and has a denser cooler matrix.

Significantly they also fitted captive fasteners into the side tanks at which location the rads are now "braced". This isn't quite "at the seam" as Noel desires. There are limitations I guess working within the frame area.

If you look at the 2010 water rad you can see the captive fasteners on the right side of the tank. Also note there are two fans and each fan acts as a stress member..The transfer pipe also supports some of the weight of the oil cooler..and isn't oil lighter than water ; )

On the pre 2010 rad you can see the top left below the bracket is being pulled out.

Noel and Donsy have done great work on re-thinking the system and basically came up with the 2010 system before MV did : )

I am fitting a 2010 cooling system to my 2007 bike...almost there...cost me alot of $$. The parts are to date very difficult to locate... and I'm fitting a 19.75 brace to my 312 ; ) .

joe
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Last edited by gotojoe : 05-02-2012 at 03:25 AM.
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Old 05-02-2012, 05:18 PM   #30
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evening all well
i received my bracket yeasterday and have now fitted it
a fiddley job of sorts but done with the rad still in place
easest way remove side fairings n belly pan
remove nose cone
remove air tube
undo the 2 rad bolts
pull top rubber out
fit brace and lightly bolt up
then tighten up once happy
(i did try and do it while the air tube was in place but i couldn't get the bolt in and started as theres not a lot of room thought fuk this and remove the tube easy became a doddle lol)
worth it fantasic i got 06 f4 1000 but rather sepend the 19.75 for a peice of mind
many thanks joe
jas
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